Plato vs. Pluto? Comparing Hellenistic and Evolutionary Astrology with Ari Moshe Wolfe – Episode 2

Adam Elenbaas:

Hey everyone! This is Adam Elenbaas from Nightlight Astrology. Today, I’m joined by my friend and colleague, Ari Moshe Wolf. We’re continuing our discussion on the interesting differences between perspectives on the nodes of the moon, focusing on the Hellenistic and evolutionary schools of astrology.

Both of these schools are quite popular, yet they come with different techniques and underlying philosophies. This series aims to explore these differences while also building meaningful bridges between the two. It’s common for students to concentrate on one school of thought and inadvertently wall themselves off from others. This series has sparked fruitful conversations among Nightlight students and colleagues, which is encouraging.

I couldn’t think of a better person from the evolutionary school of astrology than Ari to engage with in this discussion. I’ve known Ari for a long time, and he represents his craft with a lot of integrity.

Before we dive in, don’t forget to like and subscribe to help us grow our channel. You can find transcripts of these talks on our website, NightlightAstrology.com.

Promotions:

We have our Ancient Astrology for the Modern Mystic course starting on November 16, with just one week left to register. You can find more details under the Courses tab on our website. After today’s video, there will be a bonus video with more information about the course if you’re interested.

This is a great time to start an apprenticeship, especially with Pluto entering Aquarius shortly after the course begins, and Uranus moving into Gemini during your first year. This program is designed for both aspiring professional astrologers and hobbyists looking to deepen their knowledge.

We also offer need-based tuition assistance for those experiencing financial hardships. If you have questions about anything on our page, feel free to email us at info@NightlightAstrology.com.

Upcoming Events:

Also, check out our events page! On November 21, I’ll be giving a talk titled Pluto in Aquarius: AI, Aliens, and New World Orders. This will explore the implications of Pluto entering Aquarius, including insights from its last transit in this sign.

Thanks for listening, and now, let’s welcome back my friend and colleague, Ari.

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Ari Moshe Wolf:

Hey Adam!

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Adam Elenbaas:

Great to have you back for this conversation. The feedback from our first episode has been incredible. I’ve received more personal messages expressing gratitude for this dialogue than I usually do. Many people feel they can focus too much on their own school of astrology and miss out on commonalities with others.

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Ari Moshe Wolf:

Absolutely, I’ve noticed a lot of positive feedback as well. Many students are confused about which system to start with, and this conversation has helped them see that, at the core, these systems have much more in common than they think.

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Adam Elenbaas:

For sure! I’ll share how to find Ari’s work at the end, but you can check him out right away at arimosha.com and on YouTube at Heart and Soul Centered Astrology.

In our first episode, we unpacked the philosophical foundations of both Hellenistic and evolutionary astrology. Ari comes from the teachings of Jeffrey Wolf Green, who had a unique download process connected to both his experiences and the Jyotish tradition. This background is crucial as we bridge some of these points of view.

So, Ari, could you share some core philosophies around the nodes of the moon and how they’re interpreted in evolutionary astrology?

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Ari Moshe Wolf:

Sure! Let’s briefly touch on the moon. It represents early emotional imprinting and serves as a filter for how we integrate experiences. For example, a Taurus moon seeks security and grounding, while an Aquarius moon approaches things differently.

The South Node reflects our identity development before this life. It encapsulates memories from prior lifetimes, shaping our self-concept and identity. Understanding our South Node is essential because it informs our sense of self and the experiences we bring into this life.

The South Node isn’t just about who we’ve been; it’s about the identity structure we’ve developed. This self-image allows us to evolve by creating experiences that foster learning. Each life’s circumstances may reflect unresolved dynamics tied to our South Node, which we must work through in this lifetime.

Evolution occurs through our emotional body, meaning we grow by integrating our experiences. The South Node thus highlights any lingering emotional residues that need resolution.

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Adam Elenbaas:

That’s a rich perspective! We often see how the South Node influences our current life experiences. Let’s continue exploring this. How does the North Node relate to this journey?

Ari Moshe Wolfe
The north node in the EA paradigm is taught as an ongoing evolutionary direction for the soul that corresponds to experiences that the soul is wanting to have to further its own evolutionary growth. And again, because this is about evolution, we're not here to stay in any polarity. So that north node is always going to represent there's something more to evolve into. I'm wanting to experience something new in this lifetime.

So both corresponds to, there's more to do. There's an evolutionary curriculum here, and it's going to, in general, not always. We'll probably speak about this something to embrace relative to your ongoing growth you haven't yet know self in the framework of this North Node signature.

In general, the North Node can be a point of resistance if we're attached to or addicted to the familiarity of the South Node. It can also be a point of great enthusiasm and eagerness, where we can jump to it before we're actually ready, or even know how to fully integrate ourselves within it.

Sure. So on the most basic level, it's an ongoing evolutionary direction, and I'll just complete it with this idea, since evolution requires a completeness of experience. We need to emotionally integrate everything that we encounter in this life, and it's not just tasting it, it's actually assimilating. That north node is going to represent a threshold of ever unfolding, blossoming realization and experience that's going to take us deeper and deeper and deeper into a new way of knowing ourselves, through which a whole realm of human experience might be opening to us and kind of bring us new thresholds of our soul.

It's going to point us back to, "Oh, I can do this. I can be this. I can experience this way," and that can all become a source of profound healing and empowerment and growth for the soul.

Adam Elenbaas
Nice. So I'm gonna, I'm glad to clarify this, because from what I heard you saying, one of the kind of lines that I've heard so many times about the nodes of the moon, and I believe it was Michael Luton who first said this, but Stephen Forrest often quotes it when he's breaking down the nodes of the moon in his newsletters, or reminding everyone of what they mean, is he will use this phrase that again, I think it was Michael Luten who first said it, which is that the south node is the bottle and the North Node is the meeting, like an alcoholic in their drinking problem, and the North Node is like a 12 step program.

And I've always been really turned off by that statement. I've always just had a super resistant, immediate instinctual reaction against it prior to having learned anything about the ancient perspective of the nodes. Even when I was the first three years of my practice, I was working with both Stephen Forrest and Jeffrey Wolf Green's ideas and implementing them in a lot of the way that I read charts and so forth. But even then, I still had such a visceral reaction to that idea that it felt like a gross oversimplification of things.

Could you speak to that a little bit more?

Ari Moshe Wolfe
I just completely, I completely agree to that, because that makes it a little bit too binary, in the sense that the south node is always a default security pattern, and it doesn't allow for the complexity and the nuance of sometimes the south node needs to be worked out, or there's work to do. There's unfinished business. It doesn't exist just as a default. I'm going to go there because that's what's comfortable.

It can clearly represent that, but there's much more nuance to it. And if you look at the south node and you're trying to hold it purely as here are these addictive patterns or over attachments, we might miss out on the gems and the gifts that are actually meant to be brought forward relative to the south node. This is especially true if you have planets in the south node in which both cases could apply.

And with a north node, it's not just like this is what's going to get you sober in life. Everything here is pointing back to the soul's ongoing evolutionary work. So we come into this lifetime because we have unresolved desire that North Node says there's more to experience, and we have to embrace that.

There's an ongoing evolutionary path that needs to be embraced with the North Node. But it's not about leaving one behind to embrace the other, because that, and we'll talk about it with squares to the nodes, creates immense polarization and confusion. We have to be integrated, otherwise we're not resolved emotionally.

Adam Elenbaas
Integration is where our soul is, perhaps exploring the relatively less known or experienced polarity point of the North Node. But there's also the task of holding the tension of these opposites, since the opposites are always sort of working together on some deeper level, like the Tao.

Ari Moshe Wolfe
Exactly. The moment we, even if it's the North Node, try to actualize the North Node but we're unresolved, and we're not fully integrated with the south node is where the north node itself cannot be actualized. It's absolutely impossible. Neither can be understood in context with its polarity.

Adam Elenbaas
Does lead me to the next question, which you were just kind of alluding to, which is, how does evolutionary astrology deal with planets that conjoin the nodes? Maybe we can, after that, go to squares to the nodes, because one thing that both schools share in common, and we'll maybe when I unpack the ancient perspective, I'll mention this as well. But planets that conjoin the nodes are given major treatment in both schools. How does EA deal with a planet on your South Node, a planet on your North Node?

I guess generally, maybe there's some examples you could give us too.

Ari Moshe Wolfe
So should we do that and then jump into the Hellenistic view? Yeah, let's do that. Okay, great. So we'll go full on in this.

What I just expressed with the nodes applies to adding a planet to the south node. Planets on the south node mean those planetary functions have been essential to the development of the ecosystem and prior lifetimes and are being directly brought forward. Planets on the south node can manifest in those two conditions, and really three conditions.

One condition is there are dynamics to relive and resolve. Let's say Saturn on the south node. Okay, there are authority issues, learning issues of ethics and responsibility and morality. You can have Saturn on the south node and whatever sign or house. And there are going to be a need to recreate and relive Saturn type dynamics, to learn how to come into balance and healthy integration with Saturn, without which we're going to be constantly struggling with the Saturn dimension of our life.

There can be gifts and fruitive dynamics that are also being brought forward. So Saturn, you can have the skill of worldly skillfulness and responsibility, and of having had prior lifetimes of manifesting roles of responsibility and social service, even relative to that Saturn function. You're meant to continue and develop that in this direction in this lifetime.

So there's more to give and bring to completion there, but you're not like learning these lessons, in most cases, with a south node and planets on the south node. It's a combination of both. It's very important. Very few souls will have a south node or a planet on the south node in a situation where it's purely relive and resolve, or where it's purely karmic fruition. It's like we got both.

As a person who has 123 planets on his South Node, it's very much both. And so the question becomes, how do you know? That's the gem of evolutionary astrology. Don't try to know. Just observe the soul. Right?

And of course, there are mitigating factors, like if you have planets on the south node square in another planet, that's a very clear indication that there are particular karmic dynamics. But it's very important with the south node that you observe the reality of the soul, get to know them.

It's such an important piece where I think there's an over-eagerness I find amongst a lot of students to want to interpret a chart blindly and just jump into a session. We have to appreciate that the chart reflects the reality of the soul. It isn't causative. So you can have several people with the same chart, and those dynamics can be reflecting different karmic situations for each individual soul.

So it's important that we don't judge the other nuance. Maybe I'll just mention this, just to bring it forward, but I won't go into it deeply. There is a difference as to whether the planets on the south node are moving to join the south node in conjunction or if they're separating from the south node. Simply that just speaks to different stages along a cycle.

In EA, we look at aspects relative to where planets are manifesting, within a concept, within a construct of time, right in time, what's the developmental phase that's being played out? So if it's balsamic, if it's completing a cycle to the south node, that means there's a cycle of developments that are being brought into completion. If it's in a new phase at the south node, it means in this lifetime or in a recent life, a new cycle relative to past development is now being initiated, and in both cases, we can still have the relive, resolve and fruitive dynamics that I mentioned.

Got it. Let me give a fun nuance here. This is, again, the beauty of looking at the chart in our life from a soul perspective. We addressed this in my training program recently, where we're learning this very topic right now.

Let's say you have Saturn in Aries on the south node. We can have a soul who, let's say, in past lifetimes, was a very strong leader, but maybe sort of like a dictator or very controlling or very tyrannical. They misused their authority; they were judgmental and push

 

Adam Elenbaas

Nice, which doesn't that also is another clarifying point for me. Two things I want to say here. One is because if we look at it from this perspective, where we've talked about this before, like Lance Armstrong was an example chart that you and I were discussing like off camera in through emails and stuff. He has the North Node in Mars conjoined. And from the traditional perspective, that can be sort of problematic for a variety of reasons. Maybe we can unpack in a minute when I present the traditional perspective.

But from this perspective, there may not actually be an incompatibility from the way in which a traditional astrologer would look at that Mars North Node and say, Oh, that might be difficult. He is learning a lot about competition, athleticism, victory, and the martial energy is very important from this perspective. From an evolutionary perspective, doping, cheating, winning at all costs—exactly, yeah. These are problematic issues that come with that North Node. But that doesn't mean that we can't think about it so simply as though, well, that just means the North Node and Mars are bad. It means there's an evolutionary purpose at work in those impulses that's being worked out.

Ari Moshe Wolfe

More often than not, I see a planet on the North Node as being a highly stressed and emphasized area of that soul's journey that wants to be brought into an immense amount of self-awareness and wisdom.

Adam Elenbaas

Yeah, yeah, that's where I think we can build some really cool bridges eventually, because that's the exact part that I've been scratching my head about. When I'm only being fed and only hearing in the echo chamber of social media that the North Node is good and the South Node is bad, right? Because there are nuances like that where it's like, wait, wait, wait, this is more complicated, you know?

So, yeah, but the other thing I wanted to mention just really quick is that you were talking about the situation with Saturn on the South Node in Aries, and then the North Node in Libra. When you said it's both, it's both an unresolved kind of thing, maybe a fruitive kind of thing. It makes sense to me that a person who has been—because I've seen this in my counseling project many, many times—the exact example, in fact, many times, you have people who have experienced tyrannical authority figures.

Let's just say, you know, on the one hand, there is a need to recover some sense of agency or sovereignty or personal power, but there's an overcompensation that can happen because of the wounding and the baggage. That makes it a little bit tricky for them to move toward relational equality because initially, there's defensiveness and there's a need to recover some sense of personal strength.

As that's being worked out, it can actually make them difficult to be in relationship with other people. But that still remains the goal, and in the arc of people's therapeutic development, whether they're in therapy or some other healing modality, quite frequently, relationships become absolutely necessary.

Because there's only one way you can actually figure out if you have cultivated enough self-respect and personal strength, and that is how well you're able to hold that and balance it within a relationship with another soul.

Ari Moshe Wolfe

Exactly. We can say the relive, relearning situation would be to consider your responses, act responsibly, act with thoughtfulness and awareness of consequence. So you feel something. Take a moment to consider, what are the effects of my action? Like that, right there brings us into that Libra—I'm aware of other people, or, Hey, what I'm reacting, but actually, what did you mean when you said that?

So that can—you know—all these necessary learnings and learning how to be in a balanced place with one's authority and one's sense of I'm okay. I know who I am. I'm secure in my own self—all these core Saturn dynamics.

Adam Elenbaas

So interesting about that is that this is where I think there's so much room for really meaningful conversation about dignities and what dignities meant to ancient astrologers versus what a lot of people think they mean. For example, Saturn is traditionally said to be depressed or in its fall in Aries and exalted in Libra.

Well, it's for exactly that reason where an evolved and, let's just say, a more evolved and quote-unquote benefic Saturn is one that is structured but fair and balanced and sort of sensitive and aesthetically pleasing, like a well-arranged piece of music. Care and concern for others within structure, authority that has a concern for equality—that's your beautiful Saturn.

Saturn in Aries, not that there aren't some really—there are beneficial and problematic things about both as well. Ancient astrologers weren't like so prescriptive, but whereas Saturn in Aries will often present as major problems around will and authority, the dignities would be part of how, in the traditional view, we would cue into some of those same dynamics using a different technique, right?

Because the natural polarity of Saturn across Aries and Libra would be thought of as at work in the rationale for why Saturn is sometimes problematic in that sign. Does that make sense?

Ari Moshe Wolfe

So I have a question. This is one of those subsidiary topics that we're hoping to address. So here we are. Maybe we can do this, and then I can learn more about the nodes. So I never understood this, and maybe you can help me understand this because I think where I notice a judgment of mine come up when I hear, like, dignity, dignitaries, dignities and detriments is it just feels too simplistic. So I'm like, I must be missing something, right?

Yeah, so I think of Saturn in Libra as like, well, that can be a whole lot of issues around social repression—like repressing oneself based upon who do I need to be, to be liked or to be agreeable, or a block to intimacy or true listening because of all these constructs or ideas around how we're supposed to behave or who we're supposed to be.

I have difficulty seeing one as more potentially repressive or challenging than the other. So help me understand how are these ideas applied in a way where it doesn't become sort of an initial descriptor of something that's good or bad?

Adam Elenbaas

Yeah, that's a really great question. I mean that, like, we could do a whole episode on dignities, but so, like, dignities are first and foremost. Dignities are part of a language that is meant to describe the relative experiences of karma in the material world and the way that human beings generally value them and place value on them.

Okay, okay, so we have to first understand that it's described—being a consensus reality in which I'd rather get money than lose money, you know, stuff like that. Okay? And from that level, the rationale is really about certain kinds of archetypal tensions that are thought of as more conducive to things that people like versus things that people don't like.

So, for example, Saturn is in its fall in Aries, in the sign where the Sun is exalted, in Aries, and then the Sun is in its fall in Libra, where Saturn is exalted. So those two dignity categories work together because they basically say the Sun in Aries is very happy there because there's this growing sense of strength and freedom and fertility. And, you know, potency in the beginning of spring, right as the lights rising.

And so put Saturn in that environment, and it becomes problematic. It becomes problematic because the Sun is so unbound and so free and luminous, and Saturn tends to negate and restrict and so forth. So it creates a kind of tension. Many of the ways in which that tension will manifest will be described as difficult or tense or problematic.

That doesn't mean anything when it comes to the soul context. Or there's like, there are many instances in which that may be a strength or weakness. Psychologically, you could use someone with Saturn in Aries might have the qualities of someone who is truly humble and has a very sensitive understanding of power dynamics, right? Because probably because this is where the dignity comes in.

In most cases, that person, although they're embodying a very positive sort of side of Saturn in Aries, will probably have embodied that because they will have knowledge of abuse of power. Okay, so the abuse of power is still sort of baked in as the difficult part of the dignity.

And then the opposite could be true in the Sun in its fall in Libra, is in the place where the darkness and the autumnal power is growing. And Saturn is the dimmest, most distant planet that is associated with darkness. And so where the Sun is sinking in its fall, it's very seasonal, right?

And then Saturn, in darkness, is growing in strength. That, that, that one's a little bit more nuanced to explain because there's some really interesting things that have to do with judgment and death and karma and balancing the soul going into the underworld and its results being judged.

Saturn is sort of the Lord of Karma in that place is very happy. But that Saturn being happy in and of itself is a tricky thing to describe because Saturn is already considered to have some features that are difficult for—like people describe Saturn as difficult for a variety of reasons.

But you put Saturn in Libra and when a malefic is exalted, we have to take into context that ancient astrologers would have already had some difficult things to say about Saturn. So what that then means when Saturn is exalted becomes a little bit more nuanced, if that makes sense.

So anyway...

Ari Moshe Wolfe

I appreciate this is a good segue to the nodes, because in our discussions, I think I begin to appreciate and recognize that a lot of what feels very different between these two systems is like an underlying cosmological worldview from which these ideas are being approached. There’s a sort of respect and connection to a more modernity and a consensus way of thinking in Hellenistic and Vedic orientations, which is helpful. It’s part of my learning to appreciate that there’s a sort of “in the world” component that I think is a little bit of a stretch for my mind. I'm still learning to understand that EA kind of doesn’t even address, like, it’s all about what’s the evolutionary intention, right?

I think there can be a beautiful synastry between the two if we understand where each is coming from in its own right.

Adam Elenbaas

It’s been easy for me, having some background in modern psychological, archetypal, evolutionary astrology, to go into traditional using the dignities. I’ve always been able to bring it into a context that goes beyond right. So that’s been fairly easy for me. What’s been nice about the mundane elements is that if you think about it this way: two major schools of mystics that practiced ancient astrology—the Stoics in the west and the yogis in the east—both emphasized a certain approach.

One of the major branches of yoga, which was a huge part of the Vedic Astrology tradition, was those who practiced Jnana yoga. In both Jnana and Stoicism, you have this very interesting approach called “Neti Neti,” which means “not this, not that.” By emphasizing the mundane, we’re not meant to glorify it. These sages, who were essentially practicing yogis in addition to scholars of this scriptural tradition, which is Jyotish, and similarly, in the west, most Stoics were practicing ascetics.

In both traditions, the birth chart is just a reflection of the mundane conditions the soul finds itself in. By understanding them and acknowledging them, you can say, “I am not that.” The Stoics emphasized studying astrology to become confident in the soul, who is none of the ups and downs reflected in a chart. It’s similar with many yogis, where there’s an emphasis on, “This is just your karma. None of this is you.”

I think one reason it’s really important to have EA now is that back then, there were so many different religious and spiritual traditions—communities, temples, rituals—that engaged you with the reality of the soul. There was more space for the birth chart to reflect the mundane world. Now, we need astrology to help us carry that load a bit because many of us feel dissociated from religion and from temples and containers for the evolution of the soul. So now, the birth chart can act as a midwife for that process. I think this is something we need now more than we did 2000 years ago.

Ari Moshe Wolfe

I appreciate that. This brings me back to a question that I will table for now, but it highlights something important. I think, especially in the Vedic system, there was a very strong orientation toward seeing this human life as about evolving and waking up as soon as possible. There's a caution against getting sucked into materialism. I can appreciate how it’s a stretch for my mind to explore this, where there’s just a more matter-of-fact looking at things and an emphasis on getting beyond the trap of this material world.

Adam Elenbaas

Yeah, there’s much more of an emphasis on that. The other thing that comes with that is not necessarily healthy. We’re not living in the same world today where, whether you want to say that we aren’t at the level of consciousness yet, people are ready to take to an ashram. Most of us are going to have to do our evolving through experience, rather than going up to an ashram on the top of a mountain.

I think what EA does is sanctify and say that wherever you are, whatever life you’re living, whatever desires you have that you’re exploring, they are a sacred part of your evolution. There’s more of an invitation to find spiritual growth and meaning in the experiences of your life, as opposed to just saying, “This is the karmic world; you’re not it.”

Ari Moshe Wolfe

I hold myself. There are so many cool things we were chatting about, but I want to bring in the whole idea of the Yuga cycle. Should I mention this now?

Adam Elenbaas

Yeah, sure, throw it in!

Ari Moshe Wolfe

I’m really contemplating this and would love to hear what others think too. The origins of Vedic Astrology connect to the last arc of us leaving the Golden Age, right? According to certain accounts, we left the apex of the Dark Age around 500. We’ve only entered the next stage in the 1700s, so we’re just a couple of thousand years into being away from the darkest of the dark of a 12,000-year downward arc.

All of these Vedic teachings, and all the knowledge we know about, has been in this last 12,000 years of decline. The ancient sages imparting this knowledge knew that civilization would progressively move into a dark age. That's why we had temples and ashrams—to leave the world because it was getting darker and more tempting.

I can understand how it’s significantly different culturally to think about what it’s like to look at a chart when you see ongoing interaction in this world as a perpetual trap. Of course, you want to leave it behind and protect yourself by going to these temples.

Adam Elenbaas

Whereas now, with our knowledge of astrology, it’s happening with EA coming in, and even the reintroduction of Hellenistic astrology and other modalities. We’re applying this in a different worldview where we have to appreciate that we’re moving up in the yugas. We’re actually moving toward a perspective that embraces human experience as a support.

Let me embrace my life as a householder—this is where my evolution is happening. It’s a different attitude.

Adam Elenbaas

I really appreciate that. And just so I know, there are people who listen to this channel who are into Indian astrology. Neither of us are qualified experts in Vedic Astrology, but we’ve taken in a lot over the years. One thing I want to mention is that different schools will emphasize different measurements of the Yuga cycle. So before everyone gets into a debate about which age we’re in or which Yuga we’re in, I just want to honor the perspective presented and note that it’s interesting to think about it that way, regardless of how you measure the yugas.

Ari Moshe Wolfe

Thanks for saying that, because I have one measurement, but there are many others.

Adam Elenbaas

Yeah, it’s really interesting, and it does call into question how we understand what life is for a human soul in a different age, culture, and time. I’ll never forget something I heard during my pilgrimages in India. One teacher said that sages throughout the years have always adjusted the way they teach to time, place, and circumstance. Dharma is dharma; they aren’t changing Dharma, but they ensure their teachings resonate with the audience's consciousness.

Ari Moshe Wolfe

It’s beautiful to think about.

Adam Elenbaas

Without that perspective, it’s easy to get stuck on this perception of difference. But I think more of it is about understanding that there’s a thread of profound similarity across these systems.

So let me ask you: talk to me about how you work with the nodes from a Hellenistic perspective, as well as planets on the nodes.

Adam Elenbaas

Totally. There’s this phrase in many Hellenistic texts that says, “The head of the dragon, or the North Node, is good with a good one and bad with a bad one.” The tail, the South Node, is good with a bad one and bad with a good one. That’s a riddle—what does that even mean?

What ancient astrologers described was that the major ways they interpreted the nodes were less in isolation and more in conjunction with planets. The delineation texts favor planetary conjunctions to the nodes, making the nodes more visible and active in a chart.

Let’s say you have a poorly dignified or malefic planet. When I say poorly dignified or malefic, I’m referring to the consensus level of reality that that dignity gestures toward, which still has a range of meanings.

If the North Node is with a malefic planet, it will amplify that malefic power. For example, if Venus is in Scorpio in the 12th house and conjuncts the North Node, the North Node would be thought to amplify the difficulty of that planet. Conversely, if the North Node is with a good planet, it will amplify the positivity of that planet. If it’s with a nice Jupiter in the ninth house, it amplifies the beneficial components of destiny and karma.

On the other hand, the South Node is associated with diminishing the power of a benefic. If you had a nice Venus with the South Node, it could diminish the positive things in your karma, creating challenges for marriage. However, if it’s with a malefic, it will curb the malefic influence. For instance, if you have Saturn in Aries with the South Node, it could limit Saturn's destructive ability in that lifetime.

We’re talking about the nodes of the moon. The moon was considered one of its names was fortune, representing a planet that’s constantly changing. This represents the turning wheel of fortune, akin to the idea of karma.

Ari Moshe Wolfe
I think Rahu is the North Node. For those that don't know that, right? Yeah, Rahu

Adam Elenbaas
is the North Node, yep. And so for some Vedic astrologers, Rahu is almost like they're both considered malefics. I don't necessarily treat them that way in my practice, but their Rahu would be potentially considered like insatiable hunger, greed, lust, desire that perpetuates incarnation after incarnation, because there's this unresolved blah, blah, blah. I've always felt like there's something very similar with Rahu and the North Node in EA. So I'll talk about that in a minute. But at the I think at the very least, you can understand Rahu as a point of desire in the chart where the soul is hungry for something. There's a kind of warning that's built in with the mythology of Rahu though, that something of the polarity has to come with one of the astrologers I sent you a video on just to show you this view that I've appreciated. His name's Victor Cara, and he said he's a Vedic astrologer who said, I like to think about the task of the nodes as putting the head back on the body. I thought that was neat, but the south node will be associated Ketu with an impulse toward other worldliness, but it can also be escapist and dissociative, and can represent regressive tendencies in so far as we seek To bypass or avoid the actual like living of a life. You know which? There it is in Rahu who, in some ways, compels us to thirst or desire something, right, something. The reason that that this view became so compelling to me was simply because, and this is as simple as it is for me, I just couldn't. It down with the idea that South Node was bottle, north node was meeting. And I found this mythology to be such a rich way with some nuance of explaining why the North Node is a point of desire. Doesn't come without potential issues, right? Like, desire is desire. It's entangling by its very nature, and it's sort of not. The end goal is to, I don't know, like, let's say you have your North known, the 11th house. I would always joke and be like, Look, you're not gonna get to God realization by finding the right group. I mean, just that. Mean it'll, maybe it'll help. Maybe that process, it may. That's a really important part of the process, right? But just joking, of course. But I mean that it there are. There's just something about ancient Indian astrology. It did have, at times, what I would consider to be a very sort of harsh view of desire itself, which is not necessarily conducive to people who are at a level of consciousness in which the primary vehicle through which evolution is going to happen is going to be living a life with desires, you know. So I think that I've used a very charitable view of Rahu and Ketu that are really informed by my own evolutionary background.

Ari Moshe Wolfe
So what do you say, based on that, that the basic view of Ketu or the south node is you've been there, you've done it, and so that's why there can be a sort of other worldly sense of being more focused on the universe or the transcendent, because there's a knowledge that you've already done this world and so meaningful. They

Adam Elenbaas
don't have like, as far as I've ever read, there's no, there's, there's not quite a way of describing the south node that would say something like the the place that you started, where you said, this is like the identity structures that you're familiar with. It's never like, said explicitly like that. But what I think is similar is that there is a sense of Rahu being connected, or Ketu being connected with the past, like that is actually said in Vedic Astrology, and that if there's something potentially regressive, and the south node is associated with the past, and it's associated with a sort of, you know, if you think about like the the demon whose body has received moksha, but it's disconnected from its head. I think there is something symbolically about that that can sync up with the idea that the south node can be a place where, oh, if I just focus on perfecting this thing that I, that I have some past familiarity with, that I will, that I will achieve something that delivers me from suffering. And I think the almost like the impulse, is to seek that initially in life, I mean, not for everybody, but for a lot of us, the impulse is to seek that sense of comfort, security, freedom from affliction and pain in places that are familiar. So that's one way of looking at it.

Ari Moshe Wolfe
Perhaps one of the questions I asked then is, I want to hear the story that you shared with me that it was so touching. What do you do like so in that cosmology, you know, what does one do with the North Node? Yeah, right, but it's, there's a hungry ghost. And you shared the story about the guy about the chief Moksha and the deer.

Adam Elenbaas
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a good story. So there's a, there's a story in the srimat Bhagavatam about a sage who is meditating near the river, and he is at the precipice of achieving, you know, moksha, liberation, or enlightenment. And he hears in the river a struggle going on. And it's a it's a deer, and the deer is drowning. Well, she, she, she's in the river, and a lion startles her, and then she it kicks her into labor. She has a fawn in the middle of the river and dies, and the fawn is struggling in the river after the mother was shocked into labor by a lion or something like that. I might be getting this slightly wrong, but that's the gist of it. So the sage is compelled. He sort of reacts and goes to save the fawn, and then he ends up nursing, and it ends up turning into almost like a, I don't know, like a Disney movie where you're best friends with babe the pig, or something like, they become like, really close, and he gets completely absorbed and caring for and nurturing this deer. And then when he dies, he has this realization that he got distracted by unfinished business, so to speak, and then he's reborn as a deer. But he's reborn as a deer right next to an ashram, and he completes the process of Moksha in Deer form next to the ashram, which I thought was very beautiful. First of all, it's cool that you could achieve moksha while being a deer area. But anyway, but I guess what I what I took from that, and I think what we both took from that, is just that I believe that one way. Way of interpreting that impulse in the Vedic chart would be Rahu. That doesn't necessarily mean his impulse was bad or evil or completely selfish, like the impulse to it's just such a beautiful irony of the story that it would be an act of compassion, right? That would perpetuate another lifetime. And there's a lot of remediation techniques that I've read about in various Vedic texts. I have a whole shelf full that talk about. The best thing you can do for Rahu is be careful that it isn't simply representing selfish desires that you honor and recognize the desire, but channel it towards something that serves the whole so I'd say, for example, you're Lance Armstrong, and you have Mars and the North Node together, that there could be an instance in which doping, cheating, lying, winning at all costs could take over, and that that may be exactly what you need and exactly What you have to do to evolve. And yet, there's a sort of warning like, well, Lance, if you having all of your trophies stripped from you and learning some lessons, do you end up being a humanitarian in the second half of life and using your knowledge of bicycling to benefit children's charities or something like that, where there's this always this remediation where it's like, be careful that Rahu doesn't become this, this tempting idea that if I just achieve this in the material world through my desired body, that I will be happy and complete, that you recognize it as an evolutionary part of the story and sort of funnel it toward God, which will generally express in terms of compassionate, charitable, virtuous actions toward others,

Ari Moshe Wolfe
similar to how in the Hellenistic system, the nodes are given attention primarily if there are planets on them. Is that? Does that happen in Vedic as well? It

Adam Elenbaas
sure does. However, in Vedic, they are considered planets, not points and sexual planets, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like shadowy planets that are associated with eclipses, obviously. And they're like the swallowing of the eclipse the light of the moon and sun, but they are interpreted much more directly, without the need for planetary like in the ancient Hellenistic text, you see so many more delineation passages with conjunctions to the nodes or the nodes on angles. But with Vedic, it's like no. Rahu in the eighth has a very specific delineation. Doesn't matter if there's any planets configured or not. You know what?

Ari Moshe Wolfe
I mean? Had a Hellenistic view nodes on angles. What's the view? What's what's unique about that?

Adam Elenbaas
Yeah, so the the angles are really dynamical points that grant like, one of the ways they're talked about is the chart is looked at sort of as an Oracle, and so planets on angles are thought to be speaking more loudly in the chart, almost like the angular positions of the Tao spread or something. So if you have a planet, if you had the node on a dynamical point, you would just say that that that node, it's almost like having a planet conjoined to it, where they almost feel, it almost feels like they treat the nodes like they're muted unless something is contacting them that like, brightens them. So an angle could, like, brighten a node. Cool. Yeah,

Ari Moshe Wolfe
it's similar. I mean, obviously we don't regard it as muted otherwise, but it's similar. In ea a node on an angle is definitely going to on a superficial level, it's going to emphasize. But what it speaks to, from a karmic point of view, is the correspondence to cycles. So each quadrant or each angle initiates a whole new area of life experience, nice. So that quadrant or that house or that initiatory cycle is going to be emphasized relative to that Angular polarity.

Adam Elenbaas
Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's really neat. Yeah, I feel like what I want to do before we run out of time, because I know you're a little limited here, I want to talk just briefly about what, what I think we could say that I think probably the furthest apart is going to be the straight up sort of mundane reading of the nodes relative to increase or decrease in Fortune and Hellenistic and EA. I'd say EA is much closer to the Vedic perspective. Does that? Does that feel right to you, too?

Ari Moshe Wolfe
I don't know. I mean, in regards to, for example, like Venus on the south node versus like Saturn on the south like, those views of bad becomes good, good becomes bad. I would just be kind of say EA doesn't even go there, yeah. But I'm, I'm curious, right? Because it doesn't mean that more mundane perspective doesn't simultaneously have some kind of karmic reality to it. That's what I was just literally not where I've ever gone so I would see Venus in the south node. I mean, just in my own memory of many charts I've seen with that, almost always there's going to be some kind of unresolved karmic stuff around relation. Ship or right things to reach just how it is, right? Isn't it

Adam Elenbaas
funny how they're almost sort of saying the same thing? Then, on a certain level, like you may have some difficulties with Venus stuff. Would be a very Venus South Node and Hellenistic person. What I just

Ari Moshe Wolfe
haven't thought of and, and I'm not quick to conclude this by any means at all, is if that could be made as a rule, right? I'm inclined to say no, and that's would be a difference, but I would obviously need to, just like, objectively look, you know, well, I

Adam Elenbaas
think one of the reasons you would need it to not be a rule is because you have so many other contextual factors that are crucial to the EA absolutely theory, and so the context is going to be super important the same way for me, I have multiple considerations, like the sect of the chart, or, you know, the dignities of the other planets, or what is the benefic of sect, or out of sect, what houses it in all of those things will greatly affect how I might read Venus in the south node in one chart compared to another. So I always tell even I always tell my students in even in Hellenistic, which seems like it's filled with all these techniques and rules. They're really better understood as tools that will be used always according to context, right?

Ari Moshe Wolfe
And this is what I would offer to everyone listening who might want to get some sort of definitive but what is it why I'm not too concerned with with finding a way to reconcile all of the differences. And I feel more of an acceptance of just letting it be. Is I feel similar to someone who only knows English, encountering for the first time in ancient language and reading it and translating it and actually trying to give it context. The issues are, we don't even know. We might get the each each glyph means this letter, but our framework for understanding it's going to be so limited because of the current moment in time that we're living. So just what you said, there's so many other factors that I don't even know about, in turn, also how systems are completely organized differently you're looking at like, you know, where deacons and things like that I don't even work with. So I think there's a there's something to appreciate that there is a way to to find nuance in in all these systems, where instead of jumping into the temptation to say why they're different or why they're absolutely always the same, to really understand each system from from within itself first, yeah, yeah, you know that would be necessary.

Adam Elenbaas
Okay, we took a quick break, there, little bathroom break, and we're back. So I think what I was just initially saying is to me, when we're thinking about which of the ancient views of the nodes, where do we see the the bridge that can potentially connect them? I don't want to rush to feeling like they need to be connected. But I would say, when you have a clear lineage influence from Jeffrey wolf green to a yogi who studied and practiced Jyotish and then within the Jyotish tradition, you have some acknowledgement of the past and the future associated with the south and north node, as well as the thread of desire that's connected with the North Node. And also thinking about how we package an interpretation of what desire means within a human lifetime, now and also within a culture or tradition that may have been a lot more pessimistic about the, you know, the entanglement of the world, whether it's the age or the culture or the time or the religious fervor, or whatever. That one thing that I think, at least the way that I see the bridge, is that if we sort of look at Rahu and Ketu, there is some there are some similarities there with EA and there's actual, there's some evidence that we have a lineage coming from the Vedic background as well within Jeffrey wolf screen, Jeffrey wolf Green's sort of transmission line is that? Do you think that's fair to

Ari Moshe Wolfe
say? I don't know. I mean, obviously there's a connection. So Sri Yukteswar, of course, was an Indian astrologer during his lifetime, but he's also a fully realized soul, and so he's bringing forward this knowledge about Pluto. Pluto wasn't used in Vedic Astrology, at least in recent history that we know about. So I would just be inclined to suggest that, you know, the source from which this came from, I think just bringing forward an ancient knowledge that maybe is also found in the roots of what Vedic Astrology is. But I just don't know enough to, de facto, make that correlation.

Adam Elenbaas
Yeah, that's fair. I mean, one thing that just came to my mind I didn't realize is that I had no I had no idea that he had a particular view on on the outer planets, that That's news to me. I didn't know that

Ari Moshe Wolfe
well. Again, me Street, te are in the 70s, right? I was not alive. So this is, this is what. Came through in the transmission. That's interesting during the lifetime of Te swar. That was not, you know, something that he worked with, but isn't you te wrote a book in the 1800s about, you know, he mentioned the introduction to Holy science, that that we are in a binary star system, and that is the reason for the procession of Equinox. He was a pretty advanced soul that knew astronomy and the nature of the cosmos. And I would, I would propose that this is actually a true statement that we're starting to realize scientifically now. But yeah, this is a very high soul.

Adam Elenbaas
Yeah, that's fascinating. It really does. Yeah, to me, Well, I guess what I'll the only thing I can say is that I feel as though the it's really important. The one thing you said that I think is probably most important for everyone to hear is that from within the context of a school, a tradition with all of its techniques, the nodes are always read in highly contextual manners. There's not a simple blanket formula for reading north node is good, South Node is bad or I mean, whether you're doing Hellenistic Indian evolutionary that the context and the use of many of the other techniques and tools of the system will be a part of how the nodes are interpreted. That is at least, I think, doing all of us the benefit of saying, if you're really going to get into this, it's important that you know enough about your school of thought that you can use these other tools sensitively alongside of the nodes

Ari Moshe Wolfe
exactly. I highly discourage trying to blend schools, unless you've unless you're coming from having immersed yourself in one of them. First, find where your soul, if you're drawn to studies, find where your soul resonates, and go really deeply into that. Because we're looking at an authentic wisdom lineage in all these different paths, and it's important to immerse yourself in that view, in that understanding to really Osmose it. I think that's a place from which then maybe there can be an integration, if that's your calling.

Adam Elenbaas
Yeah, I think what we should do is in we definitely want to have a conversation about planets squaring the nodes, because that is a really interesting, I think, piece that traditional has a view on, called the bending, the bendings of the nodes. And, of course, for EA, obviously planet square, the nodes are a big deal as well. So maybe we'll set aside another episode to just focus on that. Since this world, we're almost at an hour and a half just talking about the nodes. So sure, sounds like a good, a good stopping point, yeah. And then, and then we'll have, I think another thing that will be really useful will be to bring in a to bring in a chart where we can illustrate something of, let's just say, the mundane level of the chart that Hellenistic might have the capacity to illuminate or say something about and then look at how evolutionary is going to place the evolutionary context of the soul around the same chart, and maybe even similar points in the chart. That would be great. I think that would be a really useful exercise, because we might even be able to find a chart where there are planet square, can join the nodes, and then we can also bring in the different perspectives and talk about how, you know, there's, there's multiple levels at which the tools can be used and can describe things in life, but what to speak of also describing the evolutionary context. That's

Ari Moshe Wolfe
great. And you know, if anyone wants to prepare for this, I have a free talk I just gave on planets that square the lunar nodes, that goes very in depth into this whole technique and how to approach it. So just check that out on my channel. You can find it well.

Adam Elenbaas
On that note, I want to, yeah, I just want to thank you for being here again and just facilitating, I think, another really good conversation where we can kind of just, I think today, what we did was we laid out, here are these different views of the nodes. Here are some of the ways of conceptualizing the differences philosophically. Maybe there's some bridges here or there, but we're also leaving it open to not like rush to a conclusion or try to jam things together where it needs more thoughtfulness and also just overall emphasizing something I'm really going to take with us today is emphasizing how nuanced and contextual the use of the nodes is within any system. So all of that being said, you can find ari@arimosha.com if you want to book a reading, take one of his courses, get in touch. You can also find him on YouTube at heart and soul centered astrology, where Ari is going to be breaking down transits, like he just did a great video on the Mars Pluto opposition. And as that is ringing forth in our lives, still, as you're listening to this just a couple days after you could go back and check that video out, I listened to my own placement, where he broke down all the house placements, and I listened to where it lands in my own chart, and found it to be very resonant with my own experiences right now. So heart and soul centered astrology on YouTube. Ari, thank you so much for being here and just being so willing to and generous and willing to like open yourself to my school, and hopefully you feel the same toward your school absolutely you know, just this is good to do.

Ari Moshe Wolfe
Yeah, thank you as well, brother, really grateful to be doing this with you. Yeah, for sure. Well,

Adam Elenbaas
stay tuned, everybody. Ari and I will be back again, and we'll just see where the series goes. It sounds like we have some ideas for more episodes, and so we're going to roll with it. And yeah, feel free to leave us questions you have too in the comment section, there's things you want us to address in the series. We're glad to pick up some of those as well. So until next time, we will see you all again soon. Bye, everyone. Bye.