Rewind: The Saturn/Pluto Conjunction of 2020 Revisited

Hey everyone. This is Adam Elenbaas from Nightlight Astrology today. I’ve got a little bonus episode for you on a Saturday. It’s a rewind episode looking back at a talk that I hosted in 2020 through my seasonal speaker series on the Saturn-Pluto conjunction in Capricorn.

2020 was a huge year. Obviously, we had the pandemic, and many important events unfolded in the collective, including an election year. It was one of the most memorable years in my astrological career.

Just prior to Saturn and Pluto conjoining in Capricorn, I hosted a panel discussion with a group of great astrologers. We all discussed what we thought might be coming in the year ahead, given the signature of the Saturn-Pluto conjunction. Looking back at this recently, I was really amazed.

If you want to understand how astrology works on an archetypal level, listen to this talk. None of us knew exactly what was coming. None of us knew precisely that we would have a pandemic or that all of these specific things would play out in the collective. But what we were able to get at, on an archetypal level, as a panel—I think there were seven of us or something like that—was remarkable.

We were able to describe the major archetypal themes and currents coming in that year. I think none of us would say we could have anticipated exactly what was coming, but this is what astrology is capable of doing: describing themes, describing patterns, and describing the timelines along which they will emerge.

So I thought you guys might enjoy this today, looking back on this and reflecting on some of the more powerful transits that we’ve been through in the last few years. Next year, all of the outer planets are changing signs. Pluto has just moved into Aquarius, Saturn and Neptune will move into Aries, Uranus will move into Gemini, and Jupiter will change signs into Cancer.

I can’t help but think that we’re at another important turning point with respect to collective events, especially given that Saturn and Neptune will conjoin in the next year or so.

At such a moment, for me, it’s important to step back and look at something like this and ask: What were we able to see? What were we able to do? What were we able to recognize as astrologers, and what couldn’t we see? Knowing that’s normal, knowing that’s part of the process of learning, reflection and hindsight play a role in how we end up understanding the symbolism. But it’s also remarkable to see how many things that this panel, I think, really got right.

I hope you will enjoy this bonus episode today. Before we get into it, remember to like and subscribe. You can find transcripts of these daily talks on the website, NightlightAstrology.com.

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Okay, on that note, I hope you enjoy this interesting rewind episode, looking back at a panel talk on Saturn and Pluto’s conjunction in 2020.

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Hi everybody. This is a te bhava from Nightlight Astrology, and you're at the first of my winter Speaker Series talk. The first talk in the winter Speaker Series this year is, obviously, we're talking about Saturn and Pluto tonight. That's the big astrological news of the moment. And actually, I think I've been watching astrologers or listening to astrologers. Should say, talk about this, or write about this. Give talks on this, pretty much since 2010 when I started full time astrology. So you know, and then knowing for 10 years that it was going to be in opposition to my own natal sun in my birth chart, I've had a nice long time to imagine the worst things possible, you know, like go through all sorts of crazy mental speculation. And so when I was thinking about this and getting so many emails about this conjunction and what it means, I thought, You know what, it would be really good to just have kind of a fun community event, make it a little over the top, and just get a huge bunch of astrologers together to share their thoughts. And then I just thought about different diverse voices and opinions and perspectives in the community that I like, or that, you know, I tune into, or whatever, that have come and given talks at Nightlight before. And so that's how we came up with our panel for tonight. I'm going to introduce everyone, but before I do that, I just want to tell you a little bit about the speaker series and how you can donate for this evening's talk as well. And I also want to remind people that if you could keep yourselves on mute and keep yourselves off the video camera, so that just the presenters are on, at least until the Q and A and A, and then we can open up a little bit more, and we'll go until about nine o'clock tonight, maybe 930 at the latest, with Q and A, but we won't go any later than 930 just so that everyone knows the timing. And like I said earlier, if you were here when I was kind of giving some intros, this will be available on my YouTube channel, and anyone else who's speaking tonight may distributed on their channels or to their people as well. I really just want this to be of service to others, and, you know, help other people to find some meaningful ways of working with these symbols and these energies. All right, so I'm going to share my screen and show you the Nightlight events page. Here it is. So here's our talk. And on this is Nightlight astrology.com my astrology website. You'll see under upcoming events, winter speaker series. You click on that. This is at Nightlight astrology.com you'll get to the Saturn Pluto astrology talk. If you want to read more about all of our speakers tonight, after I sort of introduce them, you can they're all here listed. We have one change on the bill tonight that I'll mention in a minute, but just an awesome group of astrologers to talk about this very historic conjunction of Saturn and Pluto so and like I said, like the real purpose of this is just, you know, let's, let's have, let's have a community space where we can make some sense of this together from a variety of perspectives, and hopefully calm some of the nerves. Because I don't think, and I don't know the panelists can speak for themselves, but I don't think I've gotten, in the past six months, maybe even a year, so many emails that were really anxious or sort of dreadful about this transit and, you know, I've been trying to, I guess, in my own practice, not, you know, whitewash it into something completely, you know, positive, but not make it into some kind of, not make it into the devil either. You know what I mean. So hopefully, somewhere in between there tonight, we'll all work these symbols together. So tonight and every time that I run a speaker series, we gather donations from the general public. You can be here. If you whether you can or can't afford to be here, it's totally fine. But if you can afford to donate, we ask everybody to pitch in. The suggested donation for the evening is 15 to $25 not actually, none of us are making any profit on this whatsoever. This evening is for the community and for the purpose of greater astrological education. And then we're giving everything that we raise to fire relief efforts in Australia. By the way, I would love if anybody has some good groups, some good, reputable groups to give to that particular part of research of where this will go has not been done yet. So what we've agreed upon now is fire relief effort in Australia. Have a good group to give to feel free to send me an email at Nightlight astrology.com I'd love to just make sure that it goes to the right group too. So if you guys have insight about that, feel free to let me know all the donations you can make on the donate button on my website page, which I just put into the chat the chat box, which you can check out. There we have people from Nova Scotia, hi, from New Zealand. St, Cloud, Minnesota, Japan, Brazil, amazing. Cool. So, yeah, so 15 to 25 is suggested. If you can give more, give more. It's for a good cause. If you can't commit anything to be here tonight, that's fine. Just pass on what you learn to others. And yeah, and like I said, the re the replay will be on my YouTube probably tomorrow. So now I'd like to introduce our panel tonight, and then we'll dive in. So we're an interesting group tonight. I'm going to just point out I'm not going to read through everything fully. I want you. I definitely will tell you where to get in touch with all of them. I'll put those links into the box. But we have Sam Reynolds here tonight, and Sam has a really interesting life story around astrology. Sam, you can wave on the camera so everyone can see you. There's Sam. Hey, Sam. And full time astrologer serves on the board of directors for the International Society for astrological research. He's written horoscopes for print and online publications like ebony in New York Magazine, you can get him at unlock, astrology.com, I'm going to put that right into chat box for you. I've been seeing Sam around here and there, and then gradually getting to know Sam over the years, and it's been really nice. So yeah, it's just an honor to have you here tonight, Sam. Thanks for being here. Jason Holley is here tonight. Jason Holley is an astrologer and psychotherapist based in Santa Fe New Mexico. He is a fantastic just a fantastic mind and a fantastic imagination. I've been getting to know his work more intensely over the last year, just following his writing and online work and listening to some of his lectures that have been available online. He came and taught last year for us. He's taught on psychotherapy, astrology and myth at UAC, norwak, lots of different places. You can find him@jasonholly.net I'm going to put that in as well, and just I don't know how to describe Jason's work. Other than that, it takes me on an archetypal imaginative joy ride. It's just a real pleasure to read, and the spaces that get opened up in my mind and my heart when I read Jason's work are really special. So I hope you guys will check out his work, and it's going to be fun to hear him speak tonight. Jason, can you wave so we know which one you are. There you are. Hi, Jason gray Crawford is an astrologer who strongly influenced by the Saturn Pluto cycle. He actually amended his biography so that I could include this for us tonight, because it's really kind of cool. He was born with Saturn Pluto in a waning square aspect, and both of his parents were not only born during the Saturn Pluto conjunction in Leo, but also have Saturn ruling their fifth house of children. That's that's interest. That's super I mean, you see the constellations forming. So what I really like about gray that I'm getting to know more over time, is that gray, like myself and like other people who are here tonight, is interested in the crossover between ancient concepts and modern concepts in astrology and Gray's work with the dignities in particular has been really I just think it's been really fascinating and awesome. Jason's been doing similar work with the concept of sect and day and nighttime, and sort of psychologizing concepts in Hellenistic astrology. Really cool stuff from both of them. But you can check out gray@graycrawford.net

do and let's see that's the best place, right? Gray. Okay, cool. Rebecca Gordon is here tonight. Rebecca is a dear friend of mine. My first astrology teacher from New York City. Rebecca is fantastic human being. I wouldn't be here doing astrology without her so and she's just done a ton of stuff too, from being consulting and teaching in astrology for a really long time. But she's also the author of your body and the stars. She's been on Dr Oz a whole bunch. She's published in the New York Times, CNN Harper's Bazaar, Vogue Forbes Oprah Magazine. And like I said, and I believe, like, one of your original mentors was Susan Miller, right? Yeah. So Rebecca comes from a good lineage too, of teachers herself, and just a great resource for me over the years and to so many people. Hold on. Actually, I think that for some reason the okay, there's her link. Rebecca Gordon, astrology.com, and Rebecca, can you wave so we can all see you? There's Rebecca, hi. All right. Cool. So Becca Tarnas is here tonight. Becca Becca Tarnas, have to put the PhD after the name. She is. Dr Tarnas is an archetypal astrologer, editor of editor of archive, the Journal of archetypal cosmology, great resource for people who are interested in astrology as well. She received her doctorate in philosophy and religion from California Institute of integral studies. She grew up in an astrology family. Some of you probably know her dad, Richard Tarnas as well. Is an astrologer, and she's done this just an incredible amount of work on her connections between astrology. Carl Jung, the Lord of the Rings, JRR Tolkien, she teaches in the Jungian psychology and archetype archetypal Studies program at Pacifica Graduate Institute, which is another fantastic school for people who like this kind of stuff that we're into. So Becca, can you wave so we can see you? There's Becca, hey. Becca, okay, cool. Patrick Watson is here with us tonight, and I'm super stoked about that, because at first it was, it looked like he might have to be with us for only about part of the time we were together tonight, but then he ended up being able to be here all night. So we're really stoked to have you here for the full, the full the full deal. Patrick began his studies in astrology at 15, and at 17, he was mentored by astrologers Nick Dagan best and Chris Brennan. That's a powerful combo of mentors to have and introduced to Hellenistic astrology, he became a member of the young Association, young astrologers, and at 21 started blogging with co author Chris Brennan for the political astrology blog in April of 2012 this is sort of a lot of people know about this. They publicly issued an accurate prediction that Barack Obama was going to win the election, and it was featured on ABC and Fox News. So yeah, Patrick is another one of my favorite. I would call you a blend of ancient and modern stuff as well, but I love what Patrick does with looking for and seeking out deeper patterns of meaning and resonance in Hellenistic astrology. In particular, I really have enjoyed looking at the cool stuff that comes out. Patrick's a great writer, so check out his work as well. All of the people I'm talking about tonight, by the way, are great readers. I mean, I think everyone here offers readings. So if you're looking for, you know, you get that reading, or maybe two readings a year, or something, whatever, you know, check out the people we have tonight for readings. Now, Jen's art was going to be here tonight, but thankfully, she's actually going home with her baby from the NICU tonight, which is a fantastic victory in a long Saturn Pluto, you know, birth canal crisis and rebirth thing that she's been going through, which she just wrote about online. So we are super happy for Jen. We're so happy that she is home and not with us. That's good news, but we're also a little bummed that she's not with us, but in her place tonight, actually, we have Lisa shim now I'm going to bring up Lisa's page, because I didn't have time, unfortunately, to bring her onto the website, because this just takes me a long time to do that. So here's her. Do I have your website Correct? Lisa, is this it okay? Did I say your last name correctly to shine? Okay, I hope I pronounced it anyway. Yeah, you did. Okay. I was like, oh boy. All right. So, Lisa studied astrology since like 2004 She's based in Denver, Colorado. She works with and is partners with the fantastic Chris Brennan of the astrology podcast, and also has a BA in interdisciplinary social sciences from Antioch College. Did graduate work in religious studies at the University of Colorado, and Gender Studies was also one of the focuses of her education. Spent time living in Buddhist meditation centers after graduating, and you know, she's served on a bunch of different committees, and just is a really clear and great teacher in the astrological community. We've had her come out and speak and teach with us before too. She gave an awesome talk, I think it was maybe a year or so ago on Saturn returns. And the difference between a Saturn Return if you're born during the day or during the night, because Hellenistic concept blended with the Saturn Return interpretations, that was really cool. And I've had the chance to get to know Lisa through hanging out, going out to eat at conferences here and there, and it's a joy to have her here tonight as well. So thank you everybody for coming and Lisa, can you wave so we can see you as well? Hey, there she is. Okay, awesome. Okay, great. So I'm going to stop sharing my screen. Remind everybody one more time that if you could please donate for tonight, 15 to 25 everything goes to the fire relief work in Australia. And isn't that you know, in many ways, the Saturn Pluto conjunction is very it's very vivid in the headlines right now, right So, and that's one example. I wanted to start tonight by just describing some of the general archetypal themes that we should watch for in this transit or that one might notice, whether it's in the collective or personally. And I wanted to I'm going to pick on Becca tonight to start us off. Becca, are you okay with starting us with a little. Description of, how can we notice these themes? What are they like in general?

Sure. Well, first of all, it's really an honor to be here, and thank you for putting this together. And there's a tremendous amount just with this convergence of people coming together to discuss this really important transit that's really profound. So thank you for creating this container. The way I was thinking of approaching this is first simply introducing, with a few words, Saturn, and then introducing Pluto. And then some of the ways they these two archetypal qualities interact without trying to go into actual specifics, since that's connected to so many of the the later questions that you have for us. So first to bring in the qualities of Saturn. Saturn is the principle of constriction, constraint, contraction. It has to do with structure, boundaries, discipline, with the with time, the slow processes of time, that phrase Saturn, who eats his children, that mythic phrase of the ravages of time, if we look toward the past tradition and the way that Saturn is connected to finitude, to endings, to mortality, Death and Dying with closure and and yet Also its connection to maturity, responsibility, commitment, strength. It's the spine. It's the structure within us. It's the skeletal structure, the image of the skull as one that can represent the structure within our bodies that has been forged against gravity, and yet is also very much a symbol of death, the skeleton, the skull in that way. So this is a principle that is connected to hard, physical, material reality, this fallen world, you could say. And yet it is the principle as well that allows us to face with strength, with fortitude, with grounding, whatever comes before us. It is gravity, it is gravitas, it is seriousness, cold winter and so forth. So that's those are some, some words to describe Saturn turning to Pluto. With Pluto, we go into the depths the underworld, the realms of hell, of transformation, the shamanic descent, the death rebirth, mystery, the Phoenix that dies into the flames and is reborn anew from the ashes. Pluto is like the destruction of a volcano that creates a massive desolation and yet brings forward the new fertility of the soil. It's like composting, where everything is rotting and disgusting and messy and shitty and yet becomes the gold that we grow new things from. So when we bring together this quality of these qualities of Pluto that have to do with elemental, Titanic power and force, and bring that into relationship with Saturn, which is so oriented toward constricting that it creates an intense amount of pressure. And that is why we see when Saturn Pluto periods occur, when these two planets come into alignment, events that really feel like one is under a tremendous amount of pressure. A mythic image can be Sisyphus pushing the rock up the mountainside again and again and again, the Saturnian rep repetition of the massive task. It's symbolized as hard work, not just the hard work of Saturn, but the tremendous, great work that is faced by visuals, that's faced by civilizations. There can be a potential that Saturn brings in to create the the block or the negation or the boundary that then others, the plutonic. And so we see a lot of division, splitting the creation or recognition of enemies and fear that can. Arise from that. And yet there's also a moral fortitude that can be forged in response of facing the shadow, facing the shadow within as an individual, within relationships, and then, of course, within the collective sphere.

Thank you. Becca, yeah, that was, that was, it's really helpful to just start, I think, with some good descriptions. And I'm wondering if anyone would like to, if anyone a panel just wants to put up their hand, if you'd like to jump in and add some other thoughts and descriptive language to the Saturn Pluto dynamic to start with. Lisa, thank you.

Oh, can you unmute yourself there? Okay, yeah. So those were all so many great descriptive words and phrases. And you know, there are, even though I blend modern and Hellenistic astrology, I definitely believe in multiplicity of manifestations. And I think that's one of the things with Saturn Pluto that people get afraid of is because it can manifest in so many different ways, and it's going to be different for different people, and not cataclysmic for everyone. But I always think of Steely tenacity. That's like one of my catch phrases for it, whether that's that's a value neutral term, it can be steely tenacity towards something we want or we collectively want, and sometimes steely tenacity towards things that are very destructive, but this sort of obsessive willpower, sort of unrelenting endurance things like that, that's how I think of Saturn Pluto in that, you know, people who can just keep going at it, whatever it is, either permanently, If that's in their birth chart or temporarily, if it's more of a transit to sensitive points or collectively, but yeah, there's that energy of like Do or die to it, and that can be good in some cases and not so good in others,

right? So you could, it could be a time, for example, where someone becomes, you know, sort of intensely obsessive in their and willful in some way that might be destructive if I'm hearing what you're saying correctly, Lisa. But it could also be that same energy put towards personal growth, or, you know, digging into the soul stuff of any area of our life might be really amazing. Yeah,

it can create great depths or push through walls that you couldn't before. But there's also definitely a manifestation for some other people or entities where it's an even more intensified than usual push to power over other people. And I think we see that a lot in the world right now. Yeah, autocratic tendencies, right,

right.

Someone else like to jump in. This is good.

I'll jump in. Um So, building on what Lisa and Becca have said, I also think of a couple other things. Especially I love what Becca said in terms of the great work, we can think of Saturn and Pluto as more like a mortar, mortar and pestle, kind of like kind of grinding in order to release power, release the juice, release and activate energy. And I think that's what's also being released now from, like the the, you know, the belly of the earth, from the belly within us. I think that's how it kind of interpenetrates the collective as well as the individual, in terms of kind of sussing out where is our real power, you know, not just in terms of the powers that be, but also the powers that be in us, and I think that becomes really important to also think about with Saturn and Pluto.

Nice. Thanks. Sam, that's awesome. Anyone else want to jump in on this?

Patrick, yeah, I was just going to say that Saturn is like endings, right and limits and boundaries. And you know, the the conjunction between these two planets is not just the it's not just this emergent type of event. It's also the closure of a previous cycle that started in 1982 and this is the beginning of the next 30 or so year cycle of Saturn and Pluto's conjunction. So there's a it's encapsulated not just this idea of of these kind of epic endings to things, but literally, it's this the end. We're reaching the end of the cycle as well. So the planets are about ending. So extraordinary kinds of endings, and as we're coming to the end of the cycle itself, so that's been kind of something I've seen a lot with this transit, is people reaching the kind of the limits of what they're willing to accept in their. Lives, or what boundaries you want to put on certain types of behaviors, etc.

It adds a little to that theme of gravity, where there's the feeling it's not just it's sort of, it's a it's a transit that carries some gravity with it, but it also carries gravity because it's the end of a very long Synodic Cycle. That's kind of what I'm hearing you say. Patrick, is that? Yeah, cool. I'd love to hear just a few opening thoughts from everyone. So can we go to Rebecca next? You just want to share a few thoughts about this combination in general?

Sure. Hi again, and and, thanks. Thanks also, Adam for bringing this together. Um, yeah. Yeah. So it feel to me a lot like what we're dealing with is the sense of skimming down, constriction contraction versus building. Even though it is a conjunction which is a new beginning, there's this whole dichotomy of beginnings and endings happening simultaneously. It feels like so, right? I think the last one we had in cap was, like 500 years ago or something, though, some of the energies, I mean, that we're seeing around this is Capricorn as an apex too. Like we've come so far up to this point where Saturn and Pluto, it's like this buildup of materialism and all of these things that we've created as they meet there, and it's the conjunction which is this Saturnian karma, in a way, it's like the result of all of these actions that we've been taking. So it feels like a very clear and sobering look at this last cycle of the last 3030, something years, for sure, and skimming off the fat we're not. We have to see things very clearly now. It's It's though at the same time, we know that it's the beginning of a new era and perhaps a new government economy as well. So I'm just seeing this dual theme of beginnings and endings happening right now.

Hope that made sense, yeah, yeah. No, totally. And I think, you know, we're seeing that theme echoed that it's, it's kind of a little hard to, you know, it's like there should be a quarter jar for every time an astrologer says it's a new beginning. You know what I'm like, because we're doing that every new moon cycle. Or, you know, but it's an it's interesting to look at the different types of beginnings that there are, and some have weightier periods of time behind them, and different different symbolism and myth behind them. And so, yeah, it's interesting to think about a beginning that's coming with this feeling of contraction with it. And yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a very specific type of beginning. Anyway. Thank you. Rebecca, Jason, can we jump over to you next?

Yeah, I the place that I go, of course, is mythologically, thinking about Saturn and, you know, Becca, really presence, both of those so strongly that I started to feel the tension in my body of this experience, of these two forces, and tension is how I most characterize this. And to me, tension is not a negative state. It's actually a creative, ambiguous, ambivalent state, like so many things are possible in states of tension, when things are not resolved and outcomes are not clear. And with Saturn Pluto, for me, it's so much about Saturn holding on and Pluto breaking down, and Saturn holding on tighter, and Pluto breaking down harder. And we can tend to value one side or the other. And a lot of times these operate, especially in a conjunction where everything's all squished up together, there's not a lot of differentiation. You know, one of the things that feels so important is differentiating. What do we want to break down and what do we want to build up? And actually, I prefer to think more like, what do we what wants to be built up and what wants to be broken down? Not so much what we want. I don't really care, but that I care a lot about what maybe is trying to emerge, what's trying to collapse, right? And mythologically, Saturn swallows his children. Interestingly, in this conjunction, right? We have Saturn and Pluto. But, you know, Jupiter is also hanging out in Capricorn. And here we are at the scene of who shall be king. Here we are at the scene of the change from the Titans to the Olympians. This is what happened. And Capricorn, one of the you know, you know images of Capricorn is amathea, who was the nanny goat who when Saturn was tricked into swallowing a stone rather than swallowing Zeus, she actually took care of Zeus and suckled him so that he could then come back. Zeus being our Jupiter, so we have this cast of characters in Capricorn at the time of this moment. And to me. Pluto's role is he's kind of like the ametic. He's like the thing you administer for vomiting, you know, so that, so that Saturn unsualows These children, because that is actually what happens in the story, you know, it's it. And the question that I'm constantly coming to is all those inner children that each of us have swallowed are always like, they're always ready to come forward. And during moments like this, this is when you vomit them up and they get to actually live their world into the next cycle. You know, when Rebecca and Patrick were talking about this as endings and beginnings, it's like they've been down there gestating in this stomach of Saturn, and now all this stuff can be vomited up. We can really reclaim or discover these parts of self and these parts of the world and groups of people who have been sort of marginalized or swallowed, you know. And I just watch people in my practice, day after day right now, you know, literally, you start to have an emotion, and you swallow it back down, right? And how do you kind of let it come back up and it that feels to me like the set of tensions that's there. And I'm, I'm always drawn to the polarity processes here, and thinking about, you know, how do we nurture the children that have been swallowed? That's kind of my question for this in myself and with the people I work with.

Amazing. Thank you, Jason, that was really great. It's nice to bring in some of the complex mythology around Saturn, especially because sometimes I feel that there's this irony where Saturn is limited by stupid descriptions about Saturn. You know, where they just kind of are so repetitive, like, well, Saturn is the structure. Saturn is the structure. It's like, Yeah, but let's, let's dig into the story. And I've just so appreciated the way you've been telling stories about Capricorn lately, Jason and stuff like that. Too. Great. Can we have some make our full way around the circle? If you'll chime in for us. Yeah.

Us, yeah, so kind of going off of what Jason was just saying about sort of inner multiplicity. That's a really important feature of this, because, as previously mentioned, this intensified division that happens during Saturn Pluto times. One of the things that really happens is a lot of person like the sort of Saturnian judgment against Pluto, and this the othering that occurs and persecuting other people, typically persecuting people, judging people for inner dynamics that we have ourselves or the same types of things that we start demonizing other people, you know, acting like a demon towards the other people we're demonizing. And one of the important things about Saturn, like you were saying, it's actually, it was always an ancient times notes, it's like the most outer planet, and it has lots of connection to imagination. You know, people like Ibn Ezra call like the power of thought. And in modern astrology, Pluto sort of like the Lord of the Kuiper Belt and all these far out objects. And some people do consider Pluto a planet that they use for rulership and stuff. So it's kind of like these combination of these two, sort of the two most deep, you know, they're, in a way, it's a different type of imaginal experience than like something like Neptune, but it's still really important to be doing that type of inner work during this because it is a great time of endings when these two come together. It is, it is a time of collapse of old structures and new structures coming in and new endearing structures coming out of this process. And like Lisa said, there's, you know, often that's really heightened among some people to really take power and take power and control over other people. So, you know, collectively, we have to really be on guard for that, and at the same time doing a lot of inner work about what you know, what we really want to create from this alignment in our own lives. And one other thing is just about this ending, if you bring in like the planetary nodes, an interesting thing is Saturn and Pluto are coming together basically on their own South nodes. So they, and that's, that's, you know, if you don't work with the planetary and it's the same thing, like the moon, even though we don't all agree on the meaning of the moon and the nodes, but it's the same thing. So the moon on the south node, or, like a solar eclipse on the south node. We're talking about the south node of Saturn, the south node of. Those so like, their whole planetary arcs are all coming down right now across the ecliptic. So like there's also this great cycle of both of those archetypes that are at this ending beginning. So it really kind of amplifies that context that we're in right now with, with everything

that's really helpful. Thank you for that gray I that's, that was, that's news to me. I don't know how many other people knew that about the planetary South nodes there. That's, that's really fascinating. I think we're naturally starting to dovetail into a few of the next questions. So I'm going to put two of the next questions out there. We started addressing with Jason a little bit too. And everyone sort of started touching on this is, how do people how do we tend to see this showing up in people's lives, psychologically, internally, but also in terms of the types of events we might see in a person's life? Maybe any stories that people have on our panel from clients you've been working with where you have permission or it's okay for you to share an anecdote. And I think that would be a good direction to go in. So how could we see it psychologically? Events, any stories you've been seeing in your practice? What kinds of things are people going through right now? What are you guys seeing as practicing astrologers? And let's go around the same way again. Becca, can you lead us off?

Yeah, so I feel like at a personal level, the of course, this alignment is touching everyone's chart in a different way, so we're all getting different inflections of it, and there's probably greater and less sensitivity to the the qualitative field of this transit but one of the most common themes I've been noticing is are people Going into their their past, into repressed experiences, often from childhood or just earlier times in their lives where there is a kind of orientation backward and almost a dissent that needs to happen in order to recover parts of the self that have Been disowned, often through shame or other experiences that have led to maybe needing, for very good reason, at the time, to cut off those parts of themselves. And so this kind of plutonic, underworld journey of recovery, which brings in another side of Pluto, which is that of power. It can be power in all its forms. Pluto can and one of those forms can be empowerment, self empowerment, or relational empowerment, and a reclamation of that. So a general theme I've been seeing has been one of that kind of turning backward and going down, going in and facing the really hard things, and often with an extraordinary level of strength and bravery as well.

Oops. Thank you. Thank you. Becca, yeah, one thing that's come up for me, I'll share this. I

Are you muted? I think,

Oh, can you hear me now? This is good. Okay, sorry about that one thing that I've seen in the past couple of months a handful of times, enough to where as astrologers, I think you guys would probably all agree, and probably a lot of people in here would agree that when you start hearing the same kinds of stories around transits, you know, you know, something's kind of cooking. And I have worked with probably six or seven different mothers in the past five or six months who have been dealing with very deep, deep inner work around what might seem to many people like mundane decisions about how to structure breastfeeding, how to sleep, train, how to and the work has the question that's come up is, I feel like if I don't do this right, it's going to damage my kid. And I just I've been doing this, maybe it's that I'm a parent for three, four years now, and I'm just noticing it more. But I've just never seen that stream of speaking of the swallowed children, of mothers coming in, being like I'm exploring ways in which I have this pressure right now, this feeling of having to make these intense choices about parenting that are bringing up some triggers about how I was parented, and things like that. It's been I just have noticed it, and that's one of the things that came up for me, both as Becca was talking, and also Jason, I'll open it up now. I don't want to, I guess. I don't want to be so formulaic. So does anyone want to jump in and say something?

Lisa, yeah, I just want to add a moment of levity, because I've had because not this won't be traumatic. Or super serious for everyone. And I've had a string of Libra rising clients where it's happening through their fourth house. So, you know, for Libra rising in a whole sign in house system, that would always be fourth house of home, Family Foundation, etc, who have had to dig up their sewer lines. And this just makes me laugh, because it's a very literal manifestation of Saturn Pluto in the fourth you know, it's digging underneath things. It's getting at foundations. It's getting at things that have rotted or D, you know, decomposed in some way, and having to fix them. So it's in line with so many videos or things that we've been talking about so far. But it's not always going to be super heavy psychologically for everyone, and I think that's useful to know, because I've actually had, like, a ton of, I've talked to a ton of people like that. And now, of course, the fourth house is more than your physical home and structure. So, you know, one can delve into, you know, are you simultaneously doing anything around family or ancestry, or, you know, that kind of thing. And for some people that might be true. Some people it's pretty concrete. And so I just kind of wanted to throw that in there, both because my practice is, like, pretty practically oriented and not as psychologically, even though I can certainly go both ways, and also just because it's funny to me, and I've talked to so many people that this has been

true for that's, yeah, you know, it's funny that you should mention that, Lisa, because we literally had, two weeks ago we had to replace a sump pump that was making this groaning from the belly of our basement. And I was like, well, at least Saturn Pluto is like, you know, saying hi. It's not just like an inner it's like, hi, you know, yeah, yeah, definitely. Jason.

I wanted to chime in on the breast feeding piece is so interesting, because, you know, that is so much what is emphasized in the story of amalfia, who I mentioned earlier. You know Capricorn from the that particular image from the Greeks and the Romans was a nanny goat, not a billy goat. I think it's interesting, because I would guess that most people go in thinking Capricorn is a male goat, maybe, maybe not, but I kind of feel like that's what people tend to assume. But actually, the amafia was a nanny goat, and the only thing that we're told is that she suckled Zeus, and that might be a really important piece that I see going on in this transit that you guys just cued me into it's like empowerment. And what does empowerment mean? You know, Saturn Pluto, of course, is about power. And someone earlier, I think, Rebecca said power over or, you know, which kind of power, and what is empowerment, and what is it to nurture? What is it to nurture the next regime in yourself, right? That's what Amalia does for Zeus. She nurtures the you know, the next, the next entire, you know regime, or the next entire, to grow a leader, to grow someone. And I wonder, I kind of want to share an image, if it's okay, of Capricorn to Capricorn images, because I do think they set the tone a little of one of the things I think is going on, and I see it happening in my in the people that I'm working with quite a bit. And it's the idea that, you know, we think about Capricorn in such a dry and daytime way, in my experience in modern astrology, and it has, I think, been that way for some time, that there's this way of thinking about Capricorn that is very much in the in the mode of like this. This one, can you see? Yeah, okay, so, so this one, I want to make it larger if I'm allowed to. Okay, good. So this one is, this is an image of Capricorn by Joe for both chart. And I don't know if I'm saying the name right, but I think this is the Capricorn that I always hear everybody talking about. It's very dry. It's very triumphant. It's always climbing, always up, up, up. It is very much a Capricorn that has been conditioned. I think because Saturn is home, is Capricorn, we often just think of Capricorn as Saturn sign, you know, and we lose the dimensionality of it. So we end up with this guy, and it's fine, you know, he's certainly ruling over it all. It's rather dry, it's rather deprived in my imagination. And the other option, or another option, I should say, would be this Capricorn. And this is Michaela, who's curious on us, who did a whole series on the signs of the zodiac. And I love this one, because the Capricorn image we have to remember is a sea goat. It's not just a goat. It's a MER goat. That tail is in connection with something way, way deeper. And Capricorn is, in fact, a night sign. You know, if we think in terms of sect, Capricorn is, is connected to very deep, deep waters. It's in the ocean, part of the sky. And so this is. A very different Capricorn. And why I brought it up now is because what I see happening in my practice is that I'm amazed by the incredible depth that I can feel right now. The incredible moments, like in Twilight and morning and night are always amazing times. But this year in Sol so this is with the approach of this much Capricorn and the Saturn Pluto. It's so deep, and I can see people going there. And I, I think part of it is remembering the night and remembering the water, the water that this archetype is connected to, that then allows it to come up and do all those amazing things on the earth, right? I mean, you, you know, it's returning to the waters and coming back up. It's a it's a dual image. It's a shamanic image. It's not a it's not a simple image. You know, it involves Second Sight, Capricorn and to me, Saturn Pluto talks about what will you empower in yourself? And the way to know what to empower, I think, is to take the night journey. It's to take the it's to go into the waters. It's to consult the tale, to consult your animal, fishy body, to decide where to climb and what, who to empower to climb. And so that's another part that I just wanted to bring in, and for me, that's my work with people that I'm working with, is is, is about empowerment, and what are we choosing to empower and and if you, if you only start paying attention to the war declarations and or lack of declarations, whatever the hell it is, or the fires or the power struggles, you're only then looking at the goat part of the Capricorn, that's what I think. There's a whole other dimensionality to this, and Saturn and Pluto are both invited into that, right? We're invited to reimagine this. When I see them at their South nodes, like gray pointed out, I see them like, can we reimagine Capricorn itself? You know, can we give ourselves permission to dimensionalize that and not just get stuck on the power struggle? So that would be what I see at the personal level is people empowering themselves in different ways, and, of course, all the shadow version too. I mean meaning, you know, just acting like monsters to each other.

Thank you, Jason, it, it. I'm reminded of this. And I could be wrong about this. Maybe one of my Hellenistic people here could help me with this, but I believe that Capricorn was one of the descriptions that was given to it long ago, was it was called an enigmatic sign. I don't remember where I've seen that, so that's why I'm asking if I'm I'm wrong about that, but the I know I remember Robert Schmidt in a lecture one time saying that the name of Capricorn the goat horned. And then he had said that there was either a lacuna in a text or some uncertainty about the the goat horned, what? And he had kind of put a question mark in there and suggested that there was some intentional ambiguity about the goat horned. And I thought that that was really interesting, just in terms of the way that he, in his talk, seemed to Schmidt emphasized that there was a sense of mystery surrounding this sign, which is nice to me as a Capricorn moon. Because I'll tell you that was, you know, everyone's always Capricorn moon, like so so many stereotypes, you know. So I'm looking for a little bit of that nighttime in my own chart, in that way too.

Well. I wanted to say, in response to that, that's an interesting thing that happened with that word, because we had Iggy compost, which means the goat fish, right? And then it evolved to IGE Karos, which is the goat horn. So the tail starts to slip out of consciousness, right at about the same time that rulerships are really solidified, right? Right at the same time, you know, as we move from pictographic astrology to grammatical astrology in the Hellenistic period, we gain some things and we lose some things. And one of the things that starts to happen is we slip away from that sort of shamanic imagination of the sign and start to say, okay, Saturn like but I think I remember what you're talking about, and that that transition and the terminology, to me, involves a little bit of a diminishment of the mystery that's really in this sign. It's so mysterious and deep. I mean, this is not just political, you know, administrations? Yeah,

I think I read you, Jason, saying somewhere that we should think about mermen as well, because we have a lot about the mermaid but there's not, maybe there's not as much also about mermen and as a Capricorn moon. I was like, Yeah, that sounds awesome, you know. Anyway, Patrick,

I thought this might be pertinent. In my studies, I've come across the the image of Capricorn, the earliest source we seem to have for to where we kind of first seeing it. You know, such show up is in Babylonian mythology. The image of the goat fish is. Is a result of, it's basically a depiction of the god Enki, who is supposed to be the because in the in the Babylonian cosmological model, the world is like an Earth, like half a semi circle dome type thing with like water surrounding it. And so the they had like three main gods, one for the equatorial band of the sky, and one for the northern and the southern. And so Enki along with an and the other one, like I remember right now, but Enki is the one that they assist with the goat fish, because it's like the the one that's associated with the southern band of stars in the sky. And so it's this half Earth, half water type of guard. And so that's sort of where we get them from. One kind of interesting thing about Enki is the fact that in the Hellenistic thema Mundi chart, Capricorn is the sun on the seventh is in the seventh place, and that is where Mars is exalted in Capricorn and in the Babylonian myths, it's Enki who actually has the responsibility of managing or containing Ereshkigal, sorry, nargal, who is the Babylonian Mars. So literally, the job of Venki was to take care of Mars, contain Mars, and that is where Mars is exalted in the Hellenistic theme of Mundi. And so I am not able to speak to build the people's definitions of Capricorn, but I think it's interesting to consider the earlier antecedents for the image of Capricorn.

Thank you. Oh, go ahead, Jason, just one. I'm sorry. It's just this happens to be the area. I think I have some things to actually say. I'm not sure I have answers to some of the historical stuff, but because I love that Patrick brought that and thank you. That is super interesting about where it is in the theme of Monday, relative to his job. Inky also was said to dwell in the absolute which, which Patrick is referring to the primordial waters that surrounded the world, right? And so which were semen and amniotic fluid. I mean, this is a fertility symbol. That's where he lived. And then he was said to come up through the swamps in the deserts of Mesopotamia, right? These are people who would like a swamp because they're it's already desertification. And he was said to come that's why the goldfish, you would see the cat tails, that we call them the, those were thought to be the antlers of the sea, of the goat fish, right of inky. And he would be there in the swamps bringing forth the this really fertile seamany, I like semen, you know, like, really, like alive, you know, fertile stuff. It's lusty, right? It's like pan being associated to Capricorn, but it's like coming up and that would be the source of creating these beautiful, huge cities and all of civilization. He was also our traditional Capricorn, like he was the creator of all the protocols of their civilization called the May. You know, he was both and but I just want to say he lived down there, and I think the only way I know to make it through this is to live there too, right, to go there. So I'm sorry, I know I'm stepping in, but it's just this happens to be the one thing that I think I might have something original to say.

I'd like to keep going on that note with coming back around to the way that we're seeing this play out on the personal scale, because we're going to have some questions about how this shows up in the collective as well. How else are all of you seeing this, either personally, for yourselves or in the lives of others? Gray, yeah, let's

let's hear, yeah, I got an example of that. So the someone I've worked with, she's born at night, sixth house, Capricorn Sun, which is the day of the conjunction. So she's gonna have the Jupiter. I mean, I'm sorry, the Saturn Pluto conjunction on her birthday also has Mercury in Capricorn. Kind of goes and Ceres and Capricorn, which I know we're not speaking to, but series is actually also exactly there with Saturn and Pluto right now. And just a little bit about how her experience of this was really powerful for me to listen to when working with her, because it really spoke to a lot of, I guess, what I was hoping people would be experiencing with, which goes with what Jason was just talking about, which is, you know, she's from the south and kind of grew up in, like, black southern churches. Moved away from the Christianity as she grew up, but always had that sort of connection to spirit and ancestors and the other world worked really hard. She has a lot of Capricorns, also a nodal. Return for her. She has a main in Capricorn too, and became a very successful artist. Moved out to Los Angeles, and when she got there, kind of continued her initially, kind of took a real hustling approach to just kind of working really hard to be successful. And in the past year, which was actually her Jupiter return. She's in that like 83 group of people with a Jupiter, and Jupiter, you're honest, and she basically experienced this sort of outer, sort of breakdown, in a way, just just a lot of pull to go within, and getting pulled into this real period of gestation, and getting really interested in stories reading about sort of the takeover of patriarchy, starting to imagine stories about the takeover of patriarchy. She's done a lot of work with her own ancestors and being a black woman or culture and that whole cycles of oppression, but sort of getting deepening into that, and she was actually a visual artist, so it's a big change to start thinking in terms of storytelling or writing, and kind of gaining and especially has had intensification recently as we're coming into this of needing to really trust this sort of channeling of this material that's coming through her. And around the time that Toni Morrison passed away, she had been listening to Toni Morrison audiobooks every night, which is actually Toni Morrison's actual voice reading her books. And that when she wants Toni Morrison, if you don't know Toni Morrison actually has a Saturn Pluto opposition. She has Saturn in Capricorn, opposite Pluto and cancer. So she's a Saturn Pluto person. And when and when Tony passed away, she really felt she really needed to do this writing. And one of the things she said was something the effect of, you know, we're not going to go forward. We're not going nowhere if we don't go back. And has really been pulled within to kind of go into her own wounds, and she and feels like there's this something really coming out of her, but not so much in this war, in this idea of like I'm going to become this much more successful, productive person with this work I'm going to bring out into the world. It's almost like this new presence, even this sort of like new sense of inner freedom that she's experiencing, and also really deeply exploring her wounds of, not only her personal wounds, of being in our culture, being a group that's an identity that is oppressed within our culture, but, you know, even going back across time with with her ancestors, and it's really wrapped up in this, this process, but is feeling this real liberation through it. And it just really spoke to me about that side of Capricorn, which we we don't often hear people talk about, but it's definitely there. I feel like, if you anybody that knows, you know people that are strongly Capricorn can have that kind of quality too. I think,

thank you, gray, that was that was awesome. Patrick, you have a story you'd like to share as well. You want to come back. We'll come back around to you. I want to get to Sam and Rebecca next as well.

Do you want me to go now? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. We'll just okay, just, y'all make mine quick. I know I had a client who had Aries rising. So the Saturn Pluto conjunction took place in their 10th house, and they have their sun and Capricorn on the 10th and over the past year, they had just gotten a new job, and they were asked to give feedback on their boss to a higher boss, and the feedback they had given about that boss led to their own boss being fired, and then they had to take on the job that their boss had just had, you know, With very little preparation, but just kind of thrust into, you know, going through, like, almost the stereotypical kind of power drama that you might expect from something like this. And I thought that was, you know, just an alarming and almost hilarious, hilariously literal, you know, manifestation of, you know, the the idea of, you know, having your boss scrutinized, and having to then take on the rule role of the boss and all of that kind of stuff. So I thought that was a pretty amazing Saturn Pluto conjunction on your son in the 10th house. Else. So that's my story, the

one that's, that's a good one that is, that's definitely, that's right there. Sam, I'm having

more conversations with people about what they're eating and know in terms of how that ties into the structure of their lives, and how they structure their meals, and how that relates to their exercise goals and what they want. So we're starting with really something as basic as the body. So that's been interesting to me to kind of deal with, like, more like, literally, how one is dealing with the source of power for human beings, which comes through food. And I think that's been really interesting in thinking about the access between Capricorn and cancer. I think there's more general conversations about food. I've never seen so much about plant based changes than like this moment in history. Now, some measure of that could be like Uranus and Taurus, but we're talking about Earth, Earth, Earth. So I think that's one of the things I've also observed. Isn't

it interesting? Sam on that note, that we are in a moment as this conjunction has been building over the past couple of years where these major vegan burgers have gone viral or whatever. Yeah, you know,

I mean which i mean i with the new data that's coming out, you know, I don't want to get into too much into this. The new data that's coming out about these burgers are not necessarily the healthiest thing for you to eat, but, you know, it's just interesting that people are thinking more about plant based options than perhaps they've ever done before. It's

like for at least for a little bit. It's possible that some good Uranus and Taurus innovations are being co opted by Saturn and Pluto. Let's go public. Let's make a billion dollars. Make it look make it sure that it bleeds. Make it sure it looks like it has marbled fat in it, right, you know. So

I think that's really interesting. But I think that's also, you know, people are talking about how they feel fed or not feel fed and nurtured and supported. And I think it does start with. You know how you're eating, when you're eating all these particular things.

Thank you. That's awesome. Rebecca, do you have any stories you want to add

in? Sure, thanks. So I might talk about I'll try to be succinct here too. I know it's a lot, but the elephant in the room, which is fear. I definitely hear that, but I don't find that clients are paralyzed in fear. Instead, I find that they're actually saying, Hey, I'm going to do this. I'm scared as hell, but this is what I need to do. There's a sense of doing your fears and the growth happening through that process. So whether it is in career or love or making a lifestyle change, ending a habit, it's almost like this necessity to just do the fear. And I'm seeing people, probably at least a handful of people, in the last month, just sort of claim it and do the work, and they're going through these pretty incredible transformations while they've attempted to grapple with something that they've been avoiding for a really long time, and that involves changing a lifestyle pattern, opening up in a new way, they're accessing greater depths within themselves. So I mean, also, I guess this compounded with the fact that we have a lunar and solar eclipse right now too. So it's sort of like a lot going on in Capricorn, right? But specifically, I think these things have to do with the Saturn and Pluto as well.

Rebecca, could you speak just for a moment to your take on what a lunar eclipse signifies, and maybe how we could think of a lunar eclipse and cancer in the midst of this right now?

Sure. I mean, that's something. It's maybe. As you know, one of my favorite topics in astrology are eclipses. So I mean, eclipses are about light, and light has a lot to do with information, and each sun out there in our whole galaxy is emitting a different kind of light frequency, which is a different quality of information. This is how I see an eclipse, and basically a lunar eclipse. As you all listening, might know it's basically a full moon, but a full moon probably times 10 or more as it's an exact alignment of the moon, Earth and Sun, pretty much. There's a cut off of a radio signal that had been blasting out from the sun. It's the end of a radio station. It's the end and there's like, you cross the bridge, it falls. There's no going back. So it's a time of endings, you know, and it's true finality. So, I mean, we eclipses are such a big topic, you know, there's the Sarah cycle, sort of the metonic cycle. There's 18 year cycles. But I think everyone listening right now, if you can think back. Back to, you know, what was going on 18 years ago in your life. There's going to be a resonance to right now. And if you want to look at the you know, area of your chart, that's around 20 degrees of cancer, you'll you'll see that's where the ending is happening. I mean, the fact that this whole conjunction of Saturn, Pluto and Ceres and everything is is opposing that that's quite significant too, you know? I mean, that sort of adds a lot more power to the Eclipse. So, yeah, everybody, this is about restructuring. It's restructuring our lives on a very deep, formal level, the lunar and cancer might, though what you mentioned Adam, I mean, that might have a lot more to do with supposing all of these planets. So it's letting go of things that might not be so easy to let go of, too. I think collectively, as it's opposing Saturn and Capricorn and Pluto. So it's, you know, it's what we're seeing in government right now. It's what we're seeing in the world these old structures, is holding on, and there's a very it's this tenuous process of releasing the grip. I'm sure we could all talk a lot more about eclipses, but I'll try to end it there. Thanks,

Rebecca, I was just thinking back when you were mentioning the 18 year cycle, and we closed our yoga studio recently, and then we're thinking about, do we want to relocate? We want to stay in the area? We've been uncertain about it, and going back home to where I grew up, in Minnesota has been an option, and I moved away from Minnesota with the last eclipses. We go back 18 years, and it felt so it felt like such a weighty decision. And I get back to what Jason said earlier about what wants, what's asking to be taken down, and what's asking to come forth. And I find that it's very difficult to sit in the process versus feeling the intensity of these energies and feeling like I should use my will to do something about it. And I really struggle with that. So for me, it's a difficult process to be in these things, these moments, these periods, these energies, these gods, and sort of listen and ask how I can serve, or how I can tend to the experience somehow that's been kind of where I've been at in this Anyone else want to jump in and talk about how you maybe we've talked a little bit, just to kind of recap where we're at. We've talked about the general archetypal themes. We've talked about how these things show up for people personally, how we've been working with clients a little bit. I do have some questions about the collective that I want to make sure we get into. And I knew we weren't going to get very far down this massive list that I created. So you guys, I've created like, 25 questions, like, just so we don't we have plenty. But before we dive into collective stuff, Does anyone else want to talk about these transits personally, how you're working with people, how they're showing up for you? Another question that's interesting is maybe about people who have this natally, and how it might come back up at such a time right now that that's another thing that's on my list somewhere. I think, Rebecca, yeah, oh, sorry. I

just realized I'm still unmuted, so I thought it might as well. Basically, I just wanted to mention that it's also how it's aspecting your chart. So this actually might be very beneficial for some people, let's say Saturn conjunct Pluto is trining all of your planets, or something like that. Maybe it's making a friendly aspect. It might not be that challenging. First of all, versus it's squaring. This change can be grueling, you know, or opposing you. So I think just to mention for the people listening that you want to see how it's interacting with your natal planets, and that will help you know on how you're basically coping with it. And I've seen so many people that are actually fine with it. They're like great Saturn's conjunction Pluto. No big deal. So it's not as ominous. Again, it's how it's how it's speaking to you personally. But no matter what, there's a sense of commitment. I think that's showing up. I just wanted to say that.

Thank you. Becca Jason,

another way that I think about the way this is consul eating for people is sort of like reinventing what adulthood means. What does it mean to be responsible, right? Pluto. Pluto demands a transformation from Saturn, just like Saturn demands that what Pluto breaks down also builds something up. And so Pluto conjunct Saturn, to me, sort of challenges. How are we? How have we in this last cycle of Pluto Saturn? How have we organized ourselves as adults? What. Perhaps, have we what adultness Have we kind of done? Because we've sort of, we think we're supposed to do, or whatever, versus Pluto sort of says re, rework that in some way. And I I've really seen that a lot in my practice, particularly with people with Saturn, Pluto, Natalie, as this one has warmed up. And I was thinking about historically when you asked the questions to us earlier, I was I was like, you know, of course, there's histories with politics and all that, but I also thought about the history of my work, which is psychotherapy. And in the 80s, right after around the time of the Saturn Pluto conjunction, is when you had an explosion of material on inner children. You had John Bradshaw writing about shame and family dynamics and family roles, and you had a huge outpouring of cathartic, oriented psychotherapies, which became a total shit show, you know, I mean, it turned into, you know, it's not real unless you come out of bleeding, you know, off of the Oprah show, but, or Phil Donahue, or whatever it was then. But it was this really cathartic, you know, oriented stuff and so and it felt like people were challenging, you know, their family, roles, their you know, all of that. And when I think about it, I really do think I've often associated that to Pluto and Scorpio that also came in almost immediately after the conjunction. But, but still, it does feel very Pluto Saturn to me, to challenge. How have we formulated a sort of shame based adult identity that involves doing for others, and you know what we're supposed to be, versus what is your own authentic adulthood? And what does that mean to you, that you are the caretaker of all these inner places within yourself? So to that, you know that would be another personal version of how this might be showing up for people, and how I see it showing up for people. Lisa,

I know this ties into another question you had on the list, but I don't know if we'll get there or not, so I just wanted to throw out that. I mean, it's not completely switching topics, but in terms of how this is showing up in people's lives, you know, it's obviously going to differ, not only based on the birth specifics, but also in terms of the timing, because we're talking about Saturn, Pluto, in terms of the conjunction, but it's actually a longer period since Pluto entered Capricorn In 2008 and then Saturn entered Capricorn in december 2017 so no matter what, in whatever area of life, this is Touching for everyone. It's been going on for quite a while, and that's part of why I think not everyone is showing up right at this moment with a crisis or a major breakthrough or something, because lots of people have been dealing with whatever topic it's touching in their chart for a good while now, and so they're either used to it and something big did happen already, and they're just sort of like, yeah, that's been happening, or it hasn't happened yet. And it's not all you know converging on this exact conjunction, which I'm sure a lot of you know, but I just kind of wanted to throw that out there in terms of how this is showing up for people, you know. So I've seen, for instance, someone who had it in their third with, like, their siblings suing them, which was, like, gut wrenching, but it's already been going on for a while. So, you know, it's like, you know, when I said, Oh, well, there could be something more coming with that. And they're like, if it does, you know, I'm already in a you know, that's not great but, and you know, a lot of people who Yeah, that's like, this isn't a new thing, in other words, and I think that alleviates the fear to to point that out, that this is not a new area for you, wherever it's touching,

that's a great point. Go

ahead. Yeah, I was gonna say a similar point that there are different time markers. I know Rebecca mentioned the time Mark related to the Eclipse. And just along with what Lisa was saying in terms of, like, you know, 2008 2017 I want to go back to 2001 to the opposition. And so I think what we're talking about, to Patrick's point, we're talking about a conjunction being, like, the beginning, but we can go back to the full moon moment of the Saturn Pluto opposition as also a reflective point. So I'm encouraging people to be a lot more contemplative about what happens at different points in their lives, rather than thinking like it's all coming down to this one moment, and it's not so. I think that's really important.

It's all happening on the 12th guys, you're all in the dark. Four days from now, you're all screwed. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I want to go back to that for a second, Lisa, and both of what you're saying is so important here that it's a it's process oriented, and there's something about, I like to think that part of the good benefit that might come out of doing something like this tonight, right around the sort of, you know, the sort of, what do they call it? I'm missing the word the partile, you know, the exact conjunction of the two planets, is that I remind. Minded of something that James Hillman said at apparently, it was like, I believe it was a y 2k can, like a meeting of psychologists around y 2k It was right right after the new year, right before it or something, I was right after in 2000 at the turn of the, you know, of the millennium. And, you know, nothing had collapsed as predicted, right? The Y 2k thing didn't really happen. And I actually heard this from Becca's dad. So Becca, if you know this quote and I get it wrong, please help me. But it was something to the effect of James Holman got up to speak, and the first thing he said, like, right after the the you know, this didn't happen. As he said, Can we not steal just a little bit of defeat from the jaws of this victory? Is that what he said, Yeah.

Can we not steal some defeat from the jaws of this victory?

It's yeah, classic. What would you Yeah? Speak to that a little bit,

can you, can you say more in the speech that in particular? Yeah,

well, I guess what I'm thinking is that there's a similar he was getting at, a kind of, you know, this, this funny way in which we sometimes long for the catastrophe and and, you know, so sometimes I see people astrologically, we get really hyped up about these things. And I'm thinking a little bit about what Jason was saying earlier, where underlying the fear or the panic, you know, pan is the desire for something fertile, the desire for something to happen that breaks, you know, that breaks out of the norm. And sometimes we, I think we, that gets masked in, in the fear and the anxiety and the anticipation of some disaster, yeah,

and I think speaking from that humanian perspective to his whole orientation as the as an archetypal psychologist, is of going down, going into the depths and the mess and into the realm of psyche and that that he doesn't want to orient toward, that which pulls us back up out of that place and tries to make, you know, make death into transformation. Pluto is the archetype of death and rebirth, and how quickly we so often skip over the death part. And so when Saturn is there with Pluto, we can't do that, because really, in order to have any hope of reaching an initiation, passing through the rite of passage, experiencing the rebirth, a death and a sacrifice has to be given. And I feel like that, in some ways, is what Hillman may have been pointing to in that statement. And of course, just a year later, and with that Saturn Pluto opposition, as you know, we're looking back to the full moon alignment of Saturn with Pluto, there was a major collapse that took place with with 911 and 2001 and the tremendous aftermath that was felt in so many parts of the world. So he may have been a little quick to say that we have the jaws of the victory there.

Good point, good point. And thank you for putting words around what was in my head. I couldn't do it, so thank you. Yeah, on that note, I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about how we see this in the collective I know that for a lot of us, it might seem very obvious, like, okay, there's a fire. Okay, there's war potentially coming. But let's talk about a couple. Let's open this up, kind of broadly speaking, what are some historical people whose lives have expressed this combination? What are historical events related to this combination? How do we see it now? How have we seen it in the past? We could even open it up to art or film or culture, let's open it up more broadly and see where we can notice these themes now. And who would like to start us off? Patrick, yeah,

I'll try to be brief, because I have so many things I could say about this, but one I think, at least as far as like a celebrity or something, someone we kind of know, who I think does have a big connection to this cycle, is Arnold Schwarzenegger, who was born during the Saturn Pluto conjunction in Leo of the late 40s. He was born with some conjunct Pluto in Leo. And. And what I think is really interesting about Arnold Schwarzenegger is that it was during the last Saturn Pluto conjunction in the early 80s that he was first cast as the Terminator, which, of course, is a perfect distillation of the archetypal combination of Saturn and Pluto, literally the end of the line, right? The Terminator is killer robot, you know. And you know, very recently they came out with this movie, Terminator, dark fate, which is, you know, very likely going to be his last turn as the Terminator. So in a weird way for him, you know, he was born at the first this conjunction Leo. He, you know, became this Terminator character that the Saturn Pluto conjunction of the early 80s, and then has kind of now completed, really. He, this will likely be the end of this role. Interestingly, though, at the last Saturn Pluto opposition, that was when he ran for governor, he became the Governator. And so one, you know, wonders then what next phase in his life he might be going into with this next conjunction? But I thought that was just a very interesting example, interesting as well, because Linda Hamilton was born at the Saturn Pluto square. Michael beam was born at the Saturn Pluto square. James Cameron, the director, was born with Sun conjunct Pluto. So there's a lot of like Pluto stuff going on with James Cameron and the actors in his movies and the times he releases them, and things like that. But in I know we kept saying, I just want to bring this up, because I don't know we'll have another chance, but we keep saying the last time the Saturn and Pluto were conjunct was in 1518 in this sign Capricorn. I would just wanted to bring up that the technical recurrence of this conjunction is actually from 735 years before, because three Pluto cycles equals 25 Saturn cycles. So the last time the Saturn Pluto conjunction occur in Capricorn, close to the degree of this one, was actually in 1284 as opposed to 1518, and I think that's important, because 1284, was the year that we got the first Prince of Wales, because that Saturn Pluto conjunction of Capricorn was when Wales fell under British rule. This is relevant for today, actually, because we are now seeing, I think we are seeing some sort of weird endpoint or something for the British monarchy. And, you know, Charles, I think, will be the last Prince of Wales at the completion of this 735 ish year Saturn Pluto cycle. And you know, of course, this Pluto, everyone's been focusing on how the Pluto, this was a Pluto Return of the United States that's coming up. But we think we kind of forget that it's also a Pluto return for the UK and for having lost the colonies. And so I think this is relevant in so far as you know, this is a time when the UK will is losing kind of its its historical role, and is undergoing a transition in their role and importance that it has in the world, and its monarchy is coming to this big juncture where, you know, Queen Elizabeth's likely passage at some point in the near future will bring up all kinds of questions about what you know, use this country, even has, you know, to the world. And as you know, Scotland and Wales are openly, you know, wondering aloud about separating from the UK. So they feel like there's a lot there kind of going on between this Saturn Pluto conjunction in Lake Capricorn at 1284, and the one we're experiencing today. And I'll keep it at that. Thank you,

Patrick, that was amazing. One thing I want to add, just really quick before I hand it off to someone else to speak, is that it'd be incredible to think that it was actually Saturn and Pluto that pulled the line. I'll be back. You know that terminator line? It's like it's actually Saturn and Pluto speaking. I'm kidding. Okay, so I think Rebecca, did you have your hand up? Did I see you first? And then Sam?

Yeah. I just thought it might be a good segue from what Patrick was talking about. So just speaking to the years, 1518, and 1284, those both were the height of something like the 1518 year was the height of the Italian Renaissance, when trade was also expanding and Spain and Portugal started colonizing. Um. Yeah, also some really dark things happened that year, like the slave trade expanded a lot, and it's interesting to look at that now, as we see, there's basically a huge slave trade going on now as well. You know, with the whole Epstein case and all of that, but 1284, as well, was the height of an empire, right? It was the height of the Mongol Empire. So, both of these showed the maximum apex, the the point of something, where it's not going any further than this, you know, and it's um, and it was also a point of great expansion. So, you know, in the 1284 time it was the sales Road, expanded trade as well. I think what's really interesting too about this, I don't remember which one it might be, the 1518 one, where Uranus was also in Taurus. Does somebody remember? I think it's the 1518 one, yep. Does anybody confirm that? I

don't know offhand. Does anyone else want to confirm that

it's, I believe it is. But if Patrick says, Yeah, okay, thanks Patrick for checking Yeah. I mean, so I think that one does have a bit more relevance, just because so many things were in alignment, even though it's not the same degree, there's a lot of echoes happening, and that, what else, what else seems relevant and maybe kind of obvious, was the the word cryptocurrency, and that's come about, you know, and that's sort of, it's gone through A lot of ups and downs, but I mean, crypto currency, okay, we're having a Pluto Saturn moment here, right? But it's also reminiscent of 1284, when a new currency came about in Venice, Italy that basically took hold for about 600 years, and that was the currency that most of Europe used at that point, the Duca. So, I mean, it was the creation of a currency that had a very long life, an entirely new economic model took over. That's that's huge. So, so both of these seemed to me like points, Apex points of a culture. And this one in being in Capricorn, you know, the materialism, the sometimes the means to an end, ways that we've taken on all of that, but also just tremendous growth, the height of empires. So, I mean, this, this could be the height of the western United States empire. You know, I'm not it. It sort of feels like that too. I mean, and maybe that's not such a bad thing either.

Okay, I'll end it there.

Thank you. Rebecca, Sam, can you hop in again. Yeah.

So I just want to be clear. Are we talking about, are we formally talking about the collective or mundane aspect of this now? Okay, yes, totally. So I can bring a slightly different perspective as a Muslim, because I look at this differently than I think some of my my colleagues, one of the things I'm looking at, going back to what I was talking about, 2001 and coming back to the Saturn Pluto conjunction, um, is, is looking at what's happening. Obviously, people are concerned about Iran and what's happening, the potentiality of it, but I think what? And then going back to something that Rebecca just brought up that I didn't even realize in terms of the height of the Mongol Empire, is that one moment that was relevant to the Mongol Empire is the fall of Baghdad in 1250 Now that wasn't at the particular moment of dealing with the Saturn Pluto conjunction, but it's relevant to understand that that was one of the critical periods that Islam changed forever, right? And why I say it changed forever. It went from more of an open exploration, you know, many Westerners don't know this. It went from an open exploration that really brought much of the astrology that most people come to appreciate now. And it was actually, you know, the Muslims who actually dove in Moors, who dove in to kind of retrieve information and translate texts that had been lost to the what became the Western mind, right? It wasn't quite the west end this. They kind of call it out. Um, so that becomes critical in understanding that when that, when that fell, when Baghdad fell, it became like a moment where Islam generally said, like, we won't deal with any of those other things. Again, it's only going to be more about the Sunnah and the Quran and all these particular things. So Islam started to shut more of its doors and became insular. So I think it's important to understand like, now we're dealing with a progressive. And a progressive moment where we're kind of dealing with, I hate to use the phrase that George Bush used, but one of them was like the clash of civilizations, but it's actually a micro class within a civilization, and we're talking about that within Islamic civilization. And one of the things I wanted to bring to people's attention, just in terms of the opposition between a couple different things, one, going back to the opposition in 2001 and then Lisa shine talked about this on Twitter. A few weeks ago. We were talking about an article, a blog post from Charles Ober. And he was talking about, well, like the Saturn Pluto mess is really nothing to kind of worry about. But she also brought to people's attention that we're talking about what happened in 1947 with the creation of Israel. And we're also talking about before that, 1917 and you know also in terms of, quote, unquote, 1982 we're talking about the fallout of the Iran hostage crisis. But what you might see, and then, I can't forget this, the other thing is the division between Pakistan and India, also at that same time frame with the Saturn Pluto conjunction. Now, one thing that we focus on is, like, what's happening in the West, but people are not noticing or looking at what that meant for the Islamic countries. And so what that meant, especially for the division between Pakistan and India, is that we had, like, another Muslim country that got into like a collection with Afghanistan Iran. And the thing to know is that Afghanis, in many ways, speak some of the same language of Iranians, Iranians. And why that's important is that because we have a division that's happening with Iran as the center point for Shia, for the Shiite tradition, Shiism, and then for the Sunni tradition being in Saudi Arabia. So why that's important is that there's a war already with happening within a war. And so when the United States and England and all these other countries have come involved, they're entering like a fray that has, like, a glacial war that's been happening and brewing for a long time, that's coming to a head. So that's kind of the key point. I wanted to understand. A lot of people kind of take that out of the context, and want to focus more on particularly, like, well, it's the West and we're doing this, not realizing, like, though, there's been some stuff that's been brewing for perhaps the last, I would say, 1000 years. That's pretty I can go more into that, but I don't want to take much more time.

Thank you, Sam, that's, that's brilliant. That was, that was great. Yeah, really interesting. I want to keep passing it around to talk about the collective Lisa, I know you were looking at some birth charts of people important, the way that it has shown up in birth charts, and how they might express that energy at key moments in history, or key moments in the recurrence of the Saturn Pluto cycle. This is something you talked about recently, right?

Um, I talked about it in a presentation to a local astrology group this past year. So I was just quickly refreshing myself when you called me up today. Well, and just to cap off what Sam was saying about some of those collective points before the birth charts. The you know, some people, there was sort of a debate going on about the 1940s one, because, of course, much of World War Two, which was so cataclysmic, happened before the Saturn Pluto and, exact, in 1947 and it was more like the, you know, Nuremberg world trials and things like that that were happening around them. So the uncut, you know, the uncovering of the atrocities, but not necessarily like when the bulk of them are happening. But the Saturn Pluto conjunction happened just four degrees from, or, sorry, four days from the India, Pakistan partition. It was that exact. So there were some things that were huge, you know. And like Sam was saying, just not happening in the US or in Western Europe. But that happened. And then the 1983 one, I think it was, you know, there were so many tensions regarding whether sort of nuclear buildup in the 1980s and the early 1980s and that, you know, we were kind of touching on that in that prior discussion as well. It's like, well, is fear? Is fear like an evocative enough expression of the combination itself, or is that like pathological and if an event doesn't happen, but sometimes, I think, with Saturn Pluto, you know, it's like there is a very credible fear that something cataclysmic could happen, and you don't really know later whether or not it was about to and whether something stopped that and and I'm not just saying that theoretically, because I'm thinking of, actually that early 1983 Soviet incident where there was, like a false alarm, and there was this one guy who was in charge of, you know, whether to sort of pull the trigger and be like the US is attacking us. We need to counter attack with nuclear weapons. And I don't. Know if I can, I can share my screen right

for a sec? Yes, yes. Go ahead.

Okay, let me see if I can pull that up, because the guy also had a Saturn Pluto aspect, really tight. Let's see, are you seeing that? No, I'm sorry. Let me take a second.

Okay,

can you see that chart? Yeah, okay, so you can see he had Saturn here at the beginning of Taurus, exactly squared within a couple degrees Pluto and Leo here and Saturn was just at the beginning of Scorpio, just past Pluto in the very end of Libra, when this happened. So you can see kind of both, when pivotal things happen. Clearly that could have been an actual event, because it was just this one guy sitting there going, I think this says that they're attacking us, but I'm just thinking it's a false alarm. And, like, who does that? You know, like he was supposed to immediately pull the trigger and do the counter attack and so, and then it happened again a few hours later, and he was like, I still think this is a false alarm. So we were, like, that close, potentially to nuclear war. So that's why I think you know that, plus all of the othering, the scapegoating, and, you know, the collective shadow that gets projected on, you know, marginalized groups of people, that gets heightened sometimes during Saturn, Pluto times. Um, yeah, I think fear, even though it's just an emotion, is not always incorrect. You know, collectively speak. So anyway, yeah, there was that. And then I found all of these, sorry one second. I found all of these environmentalists who had Saturn Pluto aspects. Do you see this one? Rachel Carson, okay, so she had Saturn in late Pisces square within a few degrees of Pluto in late Gemini. She famously was a scientist who whose work band eventually led to the band of DDT, because she saw that things were poisoning the water. And then this is actually a really interesting thread, because here's another one. This is Greta Thunberg, who's in the teen from Sweden, who's in the news a lot lately, in the past year, for sort of leading global strikes against climate change. She's got Saturn in late Gemini, opposed Pluto in mid to late Sagittarius. And then my favorite one, and I think these make a lot of sense, because the Saturn Pluto, I really like showing the environmentalist ones, because these are kind of the positive attributes of Saturn and Pluto. These are, like the long you know, the sort of capacity for long standing tenacity fighting against huge powers that be, the ability to fight against things that don't look like you're going to win against them, but still continuing to do it nonetheless, sometimes over very long periods of time. So that's what I consider, really the positives of Saturn and Pluto together, and this guy is, his name is Rob billet. He he's just sort of like was this nondescript lawyer in Ohio, and he was actually working for a corporate law firm. And, you know, they, they often defended a big chemical, chemical companies, and so some as a family friend favor, he went to this farm in West Virginia, and they were like, our cows are dying, and they're like, green inside. Something's really wrong. And he went down there and discovered that, basically, like, the water was really poisoned. And kept researching further. Discovered this was all because they were downstream from DuPont. And DuPont had been putting out these chemicals, PFOA, otherwise known as c8 which were, like, really toxic. And he kept working on this. And he was normally, like, someone who defended chemical companies, but he was like, No, this is wrong. See this Saturn, Pluto. It's really pretty tight. It's Saturn and mid Pisces, across from Pluto and Virgo Saturn in Pisces, again, kind of like water, like the Rachel Carson one. Anyway, he ended up this just came out of nowhere. This was not what he was trying to do with his life. He's now been working on this for over two decades, and successfully brought a major class action suit against DuPont and one, they did a whole epidemiological study that took like 10 years. So this is this kind of, you know, and they, they eventually won, in the sense of, they proved that they there was, like, a probable link between these chemicals and, like, all these diseases and cancer and things like that. But this is. Kind of positive expression, I think of Saturn Pluto that you can see sometimes happening out there in the collective, you know, there's a polarity to it, because, you know, they have to be fighting against something or someone. So I think there's always that duality to it. But anyway, this was just like one of the most impressive examples I've seen. A lot of the environmentalists have the Saturn Pluto because it is that long standing. I'm just going to keep fighting the man, you know, that kind of thing. But this is the most striking one I've seen, both because it's really tight and because, you know, it just really exhibits that, like I just fell into this. This wasn't what I was planning to do with my life. But now I'm just going to fight this chemical company forever. And this is DuPont chart, Saturn Pluto again across Virgo and Pisces formed in 1802, so anyway, those were some of the impressive ones I've seen. But, and I just love this example, because it mirrors so well the, you know, the Virgo Pisces thing, but also it's just, yeah, you can do really positive things with Saturn and Pluto. It's not just gloom and doom, but you have to be willing to enter into the like, some people or some companies are willing to do very bad things in the world. But if I can accept that, like, fully accept that, and then, like, then you can try to do something about it. You can't really do something about it. If you can't, like, go deep into that acceptance level.

Thank you. Sorry if you hear my my daughter, yeah, she's, she's in the background, like, yes. Becca, I saw your hand come up. Can we shift over to you? And I'm going to kind of go popcorn here towards because we're, we're coming into about nine o'clock, and I do want to be able to be able to open up a little after, maybe a little after nine, for some questions from from all of you out there. Becca, could you take the mic?

Yeah, Lisa, I loved all those examples, and I'm so glad you brought forward the the environmentalists and the ecologists, that theme of the protection of nature, of the natural world, being one of the really beautiful expressions of this archetypal complex. And I used the phrase earlier the great work, and that's actually the title of a book by Thomas Berry, a self described geologian, really amazing environmental thinker who was born in 1914 carrying the Saturn Pluto conjunction of of that era, and that's the Saturn Pluto alignment that correlated with the start of the First World War. And Lisa mentioned that under the Saturn Pluto conjunction of the later 1940s 46 to 48 that that's when a lot of the atrocities of the Holocaust were emerging. But the second world war actually was declared in 1939 under the Saturn Pluto square, when they were within two degrees of each other. So both the first and the second world wars really carry strongly that Saturn Pluto signature, as do It's interesting how many beginnings of wars correlate with Saturn Pluto, and that, as they carry on, the transits shift. And with both World Wars, it moved into Saturn Neptune alignments. And so there's the move from the kind of cataclysmic crisis of the Saturn Pluto to more of the the devastation and even the disenchantment with the war that comes later on as a war has been raging for several years, and kind of feeling that shift that can take place in the kind of the lifetime of a conflict, I've been thinking a lot about this, One of the later questions that you gave us around fear. I mean, we keep bringing up this word fear, and I almost had the same answer that you know what we have to fear if we look back at the cycles of history, there is a lot to fear with Saturn, Pluto alignments, and that we have something to learn from history, and also that a place to maybe put our hope or assuage our fear is the same act. Look back at history and see what has happened with these alignments, and let's make different decisions. One of the individuals who I wanted to bring forward, who has a Saturn Pluto alignment in his chart is Carl Gustav Jung, and he's born with the Saturn Pluto square from 1875 one of the primary themes in his depth psychology is. That of facing the shadow, and right at the time that the First World War was breaking out, just before it happened, and Jason, I noticed, I think you have a copy of the red book open behind you. Carl Jung was going through this profound psychological dissent, and essentially came to the recognition the way he described it, as you have to kill the hero within yourself. You have to kill your brother within yourself, and not in the external world. And the degree to which we can do that inner work of facing the shadow, rather than splitting it off and projecting it onto other people, other cultures that really so much of the work of this time is not allowing our fear to take hold of us, so that we Project it outward, but rather coming into a relationship with that fear, where we can, we can own it, and coming back to a word that several of us have been using, finding our own power within that rather than giving it away and splitting off, which is what has led to so, So many, maybe all of the great wars throughout history.

Thank you. That was, that was Thank you. That was very helpful. I saw Grace hand up a little bit ago, I think, as well. And we haven't heard from you for a while, so it'd

be nice to hear from you, from you. Oh yeah, thank you. Yeah. There's so much to say on this topic. So one of the people that hasn't been brought up yet that I think is very relevant, that goes back to that early 80s time, would be Edward Snowden. Edward Snowden has a pretty much exact Saturn Pluto conjunction. It's in his fifth house. He's Gemini rising, and so rules his eighth and ninth houses. And his midheaven is actually in Aquarius in his whole sign ninth house, which definitely goes with the whole during the foreign lands that he's had. And if you know Edward Snowden story, in the kind of as we've come to this next Saturn Pluto conjunction, he released an autobiography earlier this year. I think it was like in September, called a permanent record, where he's basically telling his life story. I haven't actually read it, but I was looking at some reviews for it, and it's interesting even he sort of sounds like even sort of mythologizes himself a little bit in the story, like he talks about his name being from like Snowdon at some mountain in Wales where a legendary ruler, like, stuck a sword through some giants. It's almost like these, sort of like Tolkien hyper proportions. And he, of course, at 911, September attacks, he got very mobilized by that, as a lot of people did in terms of being very patriotic and willing to join the military, and ended up using he was very like genius with computers. And of course, he then ends up in these foreign countries working with computer systems. And it was around the 2009 Saturn Pluto square where he started putting away classified information. And what speaks to this about the Saturn Pluto is his, whatever you think of Edward Snowden, it definitely took a lot of moral courage to do what he did, and to take on this entire system and actually very strategically, start taking jobs in order to get more information while he was designing systems to keep this information, and this, this all this information that all of us have on our devices, and we're all constantly using, it's all being controlled by the government. And this is, this is one of the big things. We don't even know how this is going to play out. And it's certainly one of the biggest issues that we're facing right now in the collective it's one of the biggest things going on too, with all the different wars and power controls going on among world powers right now, also. And he's someone that came out and very, you know, it's that's a very Saturn Pluto quality to take on the system in that way and really make a big stand in that way and release it, you know, broadcasting it out into the collective. And then, like I mentioned now, he's basically told his whole life story. I. As we're coming to the end of this cycle. And you know, his birth time, as people have mentioned, that was sort of like the transition, as people have mentioned, there is, like the cold war that was, that was the predominant theme of the previous cycle. And in that 83 time, there were a bunch of different wars going on, as well as Israel was people mentioned Israel came up in the previous cycle, gotten wars of like Lebanon in that time period, speaking of Iran Iraq, the United States government was funding Saddam Hussein at that point to fight Iran. United States government was sending money into what basically came like al Qaeda, right, which later came back around. So there's sort of this transition to like war on terror period. So now we you can kind of see all these different themes are all kind of up in the atmosphere right now that we don't really know where they're going to be going. Except there's clearly kind of, they've all come up, basically. And then thing about Edward Snowden with taking that moral stand, we took it spoke a little bit about Martin, the 1518, conjunction in Capricorn. And I think somebody did bring up Martin Luther, but that's worth just spending a moment speaking about because that was another example of somebody having extreme moral courage to take on the Catholic Church and the amount of power they had right at that point in time. It's kind of hard to really imagine, and kind of got connected in with, like the printing press, where his whole message to get really spread, which led to the Protestant Reformation. But it's also an example of somebody who, you know, he was basically calling, like the church the devil, but he, through time, you know, he ends up calling Jewish people like the devils, like there is like a, there's a there's a line there, where people can take a moral stand, but then they can also end up persecuting other people as part of that that process, and that's why the work of young like Becca was bringing up there, in terms of exploring your inner shadow and the hero, like the hero within you, is so important to be paying Attention to one other person. I just want to mention is just another thing that comes out at 1518 someone mentioned King Charles at that time, signed something happened in King Charles in Spain, where I forget what the the order was, but it did lead to a dramatic rise of the African slave trade. And one figure I want to mention with the Pluto Saturn is Zora Neale Hurston, who was born in 1891 she's actually born with the Pluto Neptune conjunction, but she also has Saturn in Virgo. If you don't know who she is, she's a famous author who was connected to the Harlem Renaissance in the 20s. And there's also sort of a folklorist where she wrote some novels, but she also did this folkloric research where she would go and interview people. And starting in 1927 but going into 1931 when there was a Pluto Saturn opposition, she did all these interviews with this figure, kudjo Lewis, who was alive at that time. He was like 90 years old. He had been on the last African slave ship that came to the Americas. He was still alive at that time in Alabama, and she basically transcribed all of her interviews with him in his dialect, so it's basically him telling his story of being alive in Africa. He was connected to the Europa people talking about his culture. Think he was around like 19 or 20 when he was taken to taken on a slave ship, and the book wasn't actually published at that time. And it eventually was finally published right before, your honest, went into Taurus. But if you use that 15 degree orb, which Rick Tarnas uses in coddson psyche, which I think is actually a good thing to use, we haven't mentioned that yet, but I think that 15 degree or seems very accurate across time, and something to keep in mind going forward that we're definitely in the heart of it this year. But even in 2021 we'll still be kind of playing out a lot of these Saturn Pluto dynamics. But anyway, right when Saturn got in that 15 degree orb, the book was published. It's called barracun. Can hold it up. That's the That's him right there. But it's a very powerful testament, because it's him telling his story. There's also a really beautiful intro by Alice Walker that does a really good job speaking to the power of the story. Just. The someone going through that type of experience, but still finding joy in the moment, growing as an individual and like the humanity of the person is very powerful. Stop there for now.

Thanks, gray. I want to say one thing before I pass on. I want to get some thoughts from Rebecca and Jason on collective things, art, culture, wherever else, history that we're seeing this. I want to mention that when I was preparing a few of my own thoughts to potentially contribute, one of the things that I made a note on with regard to the Protestant Reformation, which we were speaking of with Martin Luther, I grew up Methodist. My father was a Methodist minister, and so I became very familiar with Charles Wesley. I don't know if you guys know who Charles Wesley is, but was one of the English leaders of the Methodist church movement. And John Wesley, of course, his younger or his older brother. And he was a poet, though, and he has an alignment in his chart of it's not exactly a hard aspect between Saturn and Pluto, but he has a spectral connection between Saturn, Mars and Pluto, and all of them are configured in a really powerful constellation. He wrote a poem that is in the Methodist hymnal. I'm trying to remember. I just have it right here. Let me just remember the name of it. It's called wrestling Jacob, but sometimes it's referred to as come Oh, though traveler unknown. I just want to read you a few of the lyrics. Says, Come O traveler, unknown whom still I hold. But cannot see my company before is gone and I am left alone with thee, with thee all night. I mean to stay and wrestle till the break of day. I need not tell thee who I am, my misery or sin. Declare thyself has called me by my name. Look on thy hand and read it there. But who I ask thee? Who art thou? Tell me thy name and tell me that. Tell me now, in vain. Thou struggles to get free. I never will unloose my hold. Art thou the man that died for me? The secret of thy love unfold wrestling. I will not let thee go till I thy name, thy nature know. And it goes on like this, a very it's a long poem, but it essentially it's recall of the story of Jacob, who is wrestling with the angel all night, and the idea of not knowing that you're wrestling with God, or something divine or transcendent, Something archetypal, and the ecstasy of not knowing but not letting go. And it gets to what Jason was saying earlier for me anyway, which is, how does a transit like this go from catastrophic or how do we even take the energy that's in the air collectively and potentially have a deeply meaningful experience with it. And I think it gets that. One of the reasons I love this poem is because I think it gets into this idea of not letting go of we're wrestling with something, and we're refusing to let go, and that that, in and of itself, is the reward, because the poem's resolution really isn't the break of day, even though he says, I'll wrestle with you till the break of day, it's really about the love that he experiences and not letting go and not knowing who he's wrestling with. This there's sort of this unknown element to what he's dealing with and what he's holding on to and what he's struggling with. And so I thought it was interesting that this is one of the famous poems that comes out of the Protestant Reformation, and has echoes of the Saturn Pluto dimension to it. And it's moving for me, because spiritually, one of the questions that's relevant to me as someone who's really into you know, bhakti yoga, is, how do I serve this experience, and how do I love it? And I don't mean that in like bright as Jason would say, sunny day apparel, you know, where it's heroic. But how do I, how do I let it do me in, you know, so that it, you know what I mean, and wrestle with something that is is impossible, impossible to heroically triumph over. But how do I find some ecstasy and just holding on teeth and nail during it? That in bhakti yoga, we consider that to be an important part of how, how spiritual life is cultivated. So I think that that's really that's just the one unique contribution I guess I wanted to this part of the discussion. Can I come around? I want to come to Jason and Rebecca before we take some questions from the audience. Jason, you want to pop in?

Sure, so and yeah, I'm really Phil. I'm just appreciating the longer we dwell here together. And. It. I can, I can feel it in me more, you know, I should come out as a person whose closest aspect to my chart is Saturn square Pluto and Saturn is exactly conjunct part tile conjunct my ascendant, and Pluto is part time conjunct my son. So, you know, I might know a little of this. And in fact, I think a lot of it, I sort of take for granted. But I sort of went to two places, actually three places, in terms of cultural phenomena that you know, happened in past moments of Saturn, Pluto, one of which, and they kind of all connect to the Becca and a couple of others who are really presenting this piece about fear and the importance of letting fear exist, you know, versus You were saying something about my concerns about, you know, everything day to day, and fear is, you know, born of night. I mean, in Greek mythology, Phobos and the most fear and terror were born of Venus and Mars. Who are, you know, the malefic and the benefic of the night sect, I mean, and it is hard to just let ourselves experience fear without the day planets going to rush in and make a plan and and it's get a vision and look, it's all okay. There is something about sinking into the fear and also something about being just totally fucked. And that's something I want to say. I want to say it that way. I had a person here with me in the last few weeks who doesn't live here, but, you know, came through some work and and you know, really is faced with impossible choices in her life period, and in other words, choices where there's just, there's not going to be a way to go through it without feeling bad. You know, if I do it this way, this is going to have, you know, it's like, and this, it reminded me of a song in the musical Spring Awakening, totally fucked. It's actually that and Spring Awakening, it turns out that the play was written at the Saturn Pluto square that was in 1891 and and that musical really does speak to me, you know, about the impossibility. And another thing, the three, that three things that I was going to point to is that that was one, a spring at Spring Awakening, which has many lyrics, including one called the darkness I know well, which is a song that speaks really deeply to me. And this experience of of like no good option. And the other thing was Sophie's Choice. The movie in 1982 was Sophie's Choice. And for those who don't know that, it's a it's the conceit. The central conceit of it is that a woman being forced to choose which child will live, because if she doesn't pick one, they'll both be killed. I mean, it's, it's absolutely this type of thing that we are often pressed to during Saturn Pluto experience, like we live with awful choices, awful experiences and and that is, is, is before day rushes in with hope about that it might be okay to just be totally fucked, you know, like, like, in that and I, I've sat with so many people who are totally fucked, like, and I have been that in myself, you know, I cut my teeth on people who are ritually sexually abused, and I, Myself was ritually sexually abused. It's, it's, it's actually okay to feel these things and be in the fear I loved what Becca was, really, you know, with a really, you know, character, like, just that fear, like it could be okay to dwell there. Probably the thing we will need, though, is the cancer polarity that says, Hold each other, be in it together, right? You know, like Capricorn, often the independents are just quite strong. I have to do pull myself up on my bootstraps, but, but if we can actually join each other in the fear and the fuckedness, that's what I see in that, because otherwise you end up with a Cold War. And that was the other event that I was thinking about in 1947 is often seen as the real opening of the Cold War. And what is the Cold War? It's a terrible way of managing fear. It's by it's like freezing. And Cold War is the perfect description of the trauma response in the body to freeze rather than to find a way to own and enter the fear and be with it together and stay with it. We sort of armor up. And, no, I don't want to fear that, you know, be there, and at the same time we're absolutely terrified inside. You know, it's sort of a double play, which doesn't give any help when you are both armored against the fear and utterly in denial of the fear. That is a state I see many of us in when we are in this i i am really amazed by how that happens. And so you don't want the Cold War state, you know, it's like, how do you thaw out and be in that place? It's safer than it looks to be totally fucked. I don't know what will happen, and that's what I have to say to people again and again when people come in with those places, if I decide to rush in with a solution, you. It's like, what a disaster, right? And when we all know this from sitting with people doing readings, I know every person here has sat with people who are there, and the temptation is strong to, like, provide something really fast. But sometimes you can actually just sit there with someone and be with them in it. And that, that's, to me, the cancer side of this, and that's, that's what you know, some of these pieces. That's where it takes me and and then you know something that you can know in no other way. And you have become empowered in a in a way that you can't even explain. How did you get through that? You can't explain it, except often, you can say, other people helped me right like that. You can say, because there's no doing it alone. That is, well, maybe there is sometimes, but at any rate, I would say, if not, the human world, the archetypal world, comes to the rescue, but somebody is there to help, but, but otherwise. But you do know something, you have come out of it with a core that is in inviolably true and authentic power, if you have been willing to dwell in it, you know, that's that's my sense. The lyric from Spring Awakening that often speaks the most to me is this one who says, you know, there's a part I can't tell about the dark I know well. And she's talking about her father sexually molesting her and and it's a terrible, terrible thing. But there is something that, when we go into that, and a lot of people will have these dark things, by the way, right, surfacing and reactivating during these times, right? This is one of the things that this will, it will dredge up the shadow as people have named. And the question is, can we be with that? Hold with it. CO experience it. Mother each other through it, you know, if we think in cancer, and we also think of a mafia, right, like you you're giving birth to something, but, but you've got to do it. Oh, and that was the other thing I just loved. What I believe Becca also said about, you know, it's death. It's not just transformation and rebirth. Like, you know, you got to death. Like, that's part of it. I think she was talking about Hillman. You know, I'm a bit of a hill maniac myself. I think we're in good company. I think quite a few of us are fond of Hillman, if he's cantankerous. But this is, this is the thing that really speaks to me. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's my that's my offering there. Thank

you, Jason, when you were speaking, I was just reminded of one other little detail in the wrestling Jacob story in the Bible, which is that when Jacob is wrestling with a stranger all night, who he doesn't know is God, there's this interesting detail in the story that gets really overlooked, and I feel like it's one of the most erotic, beautiful details about Jewish and Christian tradition in maybe my favorite reference in all of Scripture, which is that when God realizes he can't overpower Jacob, first of all, God can't overpower a person whose passionate love and intensity is overwhelming God like that's that's cool. First of all, it's cool to just think about in terms of the theological realm of thought. But then he strikes Jacob on the hip and dislocates his leg, and in a sense, is immobilizing him. And I think about the hips and astrology, of course, is very jupiterian, the sense of mobile, fluid motion, a sense of going somewhere, you know, etc. And I just think it's amazing that that story involves being debilitated and, you know, God, not being over overpower this guy, and sort of dislocating his hip. And some I've I remember growing up, you know, that it was almost like taboo to talk about that part of the story, and I was curious about it. And I guess just reflecting on it very briefly, what I'm struck by is that when we wrestle with this really deeply, wrestle with the archetypes that they may, they may dislocate, they may dislodge, they may they have death blows that they send. And somehow, if we stick with it, as is what I hear Jason saying, we somehow have a stubbornness to be with it, and hopefully to find some softness and and care and concern around us, but stick with it, that somehow that's a part of the newness in our consciousness, in our psyche, that's coming through it. I think it's, it's it's interesting to think about it that way. Anyway, it was a detailed story that I had forgotten, that popped into my head as you were speaking, Rebecca, can we come back to you before we open up for questions to close us. I

Sure. Hi, I love all of these points

so far. So we all bring in a bit of a different angle contextually. Also, maybe we can also look at what Capricorn is between Sagittarius and Aquarius, and to consider that. Right, okay, we did so much aspirational expansion in this whole period where Pluto and Saturn are in Capricorn. We're dealing with the Earth, we're dealing with our bodies, we're dealing with government structures and the results of past actions, and then we might not fix these problems that we're dealing with, our health, our bodies, our government and our environment with the same means that we created them. Right as planets do move into Aquarius after so and you know, quite soon, Saturn, at the end of this year, Pluto in 2024 so just looking also at this time that we're in as a moment when we are very much dealing with this material world and this decisions we've we've made here, and on a personal level and on a collective level, I mean, it's, I See this very much as the environmental crisis. You know, Saturn and Pluto is also that point in crisis, and it's also with our bodies and our food supply. So this, all of these things do require us to make changes, changes in our personal lives, and I think changes you know that we see happening across the globe right now that are making people realize that this is this is affecting everyone that change will change is incited with from the fires to so many Other things that have happened recently. So I guess the point is to allow this change to happen and commit to this change. I On a personal level, just to go deep into it say, what can we sacrifice? What can we make change? Because what's not working is to keep on going the way that we were, and it's the, it's what got us here to this Apex point, you know, where we can't go any further in Capricorn, we've reached that sort of ultimate point, the height of something, you know, and we can start looking up into air. Other Aquarius is next, other ways to solve these problems. So I, you know, to take agency in our personal lives. I would want to leave us with also that bit of hope to think of solutions in our personal and global areas, in different areas from from where they were created as well. Just sort of took the zoom lens out a bit, but I hope that can be somewhat relevant.

Thank you. Well, this has been a really full discussion. We've gone in a lot of different directions, and you can feel the enthusiasm, the like the word enthusiasm, and Theos, the god, the gods within, coming forth as the evening has gone on and and yet we have 320, people who have been here along with us streaming chat. I've been following some of it here and there, and I'm sure that there are questions maybe that people would like to ask. And I ask that we put the question out generally, rather than to anyone specifically, so that, that way we could all have a have a chance to answer. We'll maybe take 15 or 20 more minutes to ask some questions if you have them right now. So if you would like to, please put it in the chat box. And then, as you do, you're welcome to come on your webcam if you want to say hello or anything like that. Let's just kind of start with questions in the chat box.

Let's see

Victoria is asking Hello. How does this Saturn Pluto conjunction influence the people who may be having their first Saturn returns, other than making it more intense. Is there anything that anyone would like to add to what this might mean if you're also having your Saturn Return right now? Patrick,

one way you could look at it, instead of it just being more intense, I guess you could. There's there's potentially, maybe a more of a, maybe there's more of a kind of historical, kind of air to what like. Basically, this is like a SAT. This is a group of people who are experiencing this app in return that we might actually remember, that we might actually have a name to refer to in the future. You know, they may have kind of a more they have sort of a title that we might refer to in the same way that there are certain groups of people who we kind of designate a name for. We do this generationally as well, but I in terms of, like, what makes the Saturn Pluto return different, as opposed to the regular? A second return. Well, you know, it's this particular group people who are, you know, coming, you know, making this, you know, final transition to adulthood and maturity in a way that kind of intersects with this particular historical moment that is noteworthy in itself. It's bit vague, but yeah, yeah. Otherwise, it is just kind of a, it's a Saturn Return, but it's also more than that, you know, that's what I got.

Nice. Thank you, Lisa, you want to jump in?

Yeah? So, I mean, yeah. Basically, I do think it's just an intensifier. And for further specifics, it really just does depend on the specifics of the chart and timing and placements. And so there is more you can elaborate on, but not necessarily for everyone at once. But I would say, in addition to it being an intensifier, it's probably good to remember that a Saturn Return is both the end of a cycle and the beginning of the next cycle. And I think about the Saturn Pluto conjunction in general as that way too, where sometimes it's more obvious what's ending, but it's not obvious yet what's being seeded as a new beginning. And particularly if you are someone who already has been or is about to be, going through something that does feel more intense in your experience with your Saturn Return. It's really good to try as best you can, not to freak out and assume that what you see in front of you as your life is going to be the way it is going forward, because sometimes there is more of a crisis moment during that time when Saturn and Pluto come together, and it's affecting your chart more. But it doesn't mean it's going to be, you know, something really important can be seeded in that ending, you know, but you don't see that part yet. It's like a seed underneath the ground. So I don't know if that sounds cliche or not, but I've honestly, you know, I'm not saying as a platitude. I've seen this in real people's lives, where, particularly with people who have Saturn and Pluto together natally, and then have their Saturn Return, sometimes they have, like, real crisis points where it doesn't look like things are gonna, you know, get less dark for a while. And it might take a while if it does go into the dark, which it won't for everyone, you know, but if it does, you know, know that even if you see no way out at this point, because sometimes that Saturn Pluto feel does feel very constrictive. It feels like you're being pressure, squeezed, and you don't see a way out that's going to get better, you'd be surprised at sort of the fruitful things that can birth from that moment. It just may take a while, so kind of hang on if you're going through it.

Sam and then Gray,

yeah, I want to speak to those who are having the second Saturn Return. And I think it may seem a bit heavier than the first, because of the added influence of Pluto, but I think it becomes more so about how you're thinking about preserving what deserves to live on as a legacy within the culture and what needs to die right, and realizing that you do have That level of power at some level, whether you're participating on a level of government or you're participating with it on the level of just dealing with your grandchildren, but it's some way in which you are recognizing that you are carving a legacy, which is, yeah, the normal thing that you might have with the Saturn Return. But I think it feels weightier for those who have the Saturn Pluto conjunction along with it, because I think it is dealing with, like, the long term view, you know, like what we've talked about in terms of environmentalists, in terms of their stamina, and then that, you know, that kind of having the silly edge to kind of to have the will. I think there's a lot more willpower that has to be asserted in terms of what we want to preserve within our culture.

Thank you. Great. You wanted to jump in too

sure. Yeah, I'd second, as far as the people I've worked with, second Saturn Return that I really like what Sam just said, especially in terms of what you want to take with you from the culture versus what you want to die away. I've definitely seen that come up. And combining that with people I've worked with in their first Saturn Return, I would say the intensification thing is there, especially around claiming your authority, which you would always say, of course, with any kind of Saturn, trans, any any experience like that. But it actually, I do think it's pretty intensified. And also this extra part of the, as Jason said, the tension of being totally fucked there, that is, there is a collective climate sort of also with Patrick was saying it's going on right now. That is really coming up for the people I've seen at their Saturn returns right now. And I do think it's very much about being in that tension, being willing to go into that darkness, recognizing that whatever wounds are as part of that process, you know, reaching out to other people for support, but really entering into that place is actually really necessary. And I would also say even for myself, like not Saturn in return, but I've been having a Saturn opposition, although that's over by degree now, but the Saturn cancer, Pluto Libra square, people like me and Jason, and then, as well as the Saturn Pluto Libra, people that have had the Saturn square Pluto square, these things, I'd say, are all just really intensified.

Thank you. Gray. Yeah, I was just raising my hand like I've got that was born in the early 80s. So I want to call a guest in to share something, because we had one person tonight. I gotta see if she's still here, Sabrina. Are you still here? Can you come on the camera? Yay, there's Sabrina. So Sabrina volunteered to be an alternate tonight, in case anyone got sick, and I wanted and so Sabrina was like, our, you know, potential, like, I'll be there if something goes wrong, and participate. And she's an amazing astrologer, and I just wanted to call her in and just let her answer a few of these questions as well and turn people on to her work as well. Sabrina is a really great astrologer, and I'm going to ask you in a second to if you don't mind telling people where they can find you so that that, because I don't, I don't have it pulled up right now, but I think she's on it. She's definitely on Instagram. She's good website writes a lot, has a lot of good stuff out there. But the next question that came up, I wanted to put to Sabrina first and then open it up to everyone, which was someone was asking just general recommendations, if you're an astrologer, or if you're working with anyone, and let's say you know that this is going on in the background of their chart, or you just know that this is going on in general. And you see people grappling with this or dealing with this energy. How are you counseling people right now to work with this, to work through it. And I know Sabrina has a nice counseling practice, so I thought we'd put that to her first and then

open it up to the group. Oh, thank you. This has been really profound. Thank you. Everyone I in my practice go a lot to the personal and the psychological and what empowerment people can find emotionally, where they can find reserves of power or resilience within themselves, the word steely tenacity from Lisa is sticking with me, of you know, certain emotional skill sets and intellectual frameworks that we may need at this time to stay really present with what's happening and not numb or shut down. And I think that that is a really important counterpart to whatever we're doing externally to address crises in our lives or like social situations that we want to participate in and

help. Thank you, Sabrina. It's just good to see you. I wanted to make sure we got you in here and said, Thank you for for being there. You know, we actually probably, you know, there was probably, like 15 other names that I thought it was like. There'd be so many people that would have been so been so good to hear from. And I think this format is something I'd like to do more of going forward. It's fun to get panels together and have group think around some of these transits. I mean, we're all, in a sense, we all have our own spiels, we all have our own PowerPoints, our own charts, you know, all of that. It's good to get and together and kind of work together. So thank you for being part of the invisible gel that held this together tonight, Sabrina and all of you too who are here with us. So let's spread that question around now, and I'm going to go through some other questions too. But anything else that you guys are saying to clients or helping people with in terms of just being present for and, yeah, just sort of working with this, anything, any other practical advice that we could give, that could be passed on to others.

Becca, yeah, one thing that just kind of carrying on with what Sabrina said, and Sabrina so nice to see you here, the idea of biting off what you can chew, because the immensity of what it feels like needs to be addressed, I think, can contribute to those. Feelings of powerlessness, and Saturn can negate Pluto in that feeling of the negation of one's personal power. So what is that little thing that you can do? And sometimes it begins with when you are on the floor, collapsed, crying, just straightening your spine, and then maybe just sitting up a little bit you can go back down again, or the the incremental things and not dismissing what those are that every little act actually does count. And several people spoke to the community effort that is necessary, and that to kind of bring in an idea from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. And of course, he's born with Saturn trine Pluto, and is published under Saturn square Pluto, that no person can carry these great worldly tasks alone. And that isn't a cliche, because it's absolutely necessary. So finding power in connection with other people and in the small things, in the everyday things, putting your hand in the soil, literally and and figuratively, and planting those seeds, getting dirty and not being afraid of it.

Thank you. Yeah, that's, that's great. Jason,

yeah, I partly I wanted to see because I have to go, I I'm on to my next thing. But I just wanted I with what Becca just offered. I really like that part about, you know, really feeling the meaningfulness of any any resilient moment, any moment of straightening up. And it makes me think about the sort of dialectic of vulnerability and strength. You know that we move between that so you feel the vulnerability, you feel the fear, you feel the the totally fucked. And then you also notice that there's also a part of you that is tough and that is strong and you but you move between right? It's like Rey used that phrase psychic multiplicity. And I think that's a really, that's kind of my foundational notion of astrology, as it shows you Everything's in there. You've got it all in different configurations and combinations, but, and so that thing of accessing and pendulating, you know, between how very vulnerable we feel, and then reminding ourselves that we're tough, there's toughness in each person and tough, and I'm meaning that in a way of, like, resilient or steely tenacity, that, as Lisa said, you know, that's a good phrase for me. And I just before I go, I just wanted to express my gratitude at a tweet. So this is really great, and it's actually I knew it was going to be nurturing for me, and I'm realizing that it's helping me claim some of my power and tough with my Saturn. I actually was like, Oh yeah, right, fucking handle this. So, so thank you, and I'm sorry to go. I didn't know we'd go quite so late. So

no, it's, it's all good. Thank you so much, Jason for being here. We all were just, we were we were nursed by your awesomeness. You brought us down with the tonight. Thank you. Thank you. So let's, let's, let's have a little closing thought from everyone on that note, as Jason saying goodbye, why don't we just, I'll start at the bottom of the screen. Rebecca, you're down there. Do you want to add a few last thoughts or words of encouragement or parting for everyone? How do we we got, we got the Eclipse coming up in Saturn Pluto on the weekend? What are some final thoughts or words of encouragement you have for us.

This is probably a really good time to simplify your life, to take off what doesn't matter to you, and so you can really focus on what does. And if you don't do it, it will happen anyway. So it's better you start dancing with this reality, playing the part. This is a time when you get to see in your face what really is important, letting the rest fall away, trusting the process of death. And as we know, it's a new beginning as well as conjunction. So envisioning where that might be going for you, what new structures this this? What new what new structures you will be living in, not physically, on metaphorically, on every level, what does this look like? So it's a time of great visioning to trust the process of change. Sorry, that was way long, but I would say this is overall trust, the process. That's my final closing.

Thank you, Rebecca. And by the way, we, I don't know about you guys, but I have loved looking at your background every time you speak, I'm just like, Oh, that looks like a really cozy, amazingly fun spell the books and, yeah,

oh yeah. Thank you.

Whoops. Okay, there we go, Lisa, you're you're next in my box arrangement,

sure. So, um, so much of my work is with specifics. So, you know, I mean, obviously everyone does with astrology, but I think maybe more than average, and so sometimes it's hard for me to say a generalized statement about what everyone should do with a particular transit like this, because it will be different for different people. Some people, it won't even really touch that much other than seeing it out in the collective and some people, it will deeply impact their lives. So, you know, it's hard for me to say like a general summation, but I think one of the things that's occurring to me right now and during the discussion is something about the goodness of seeing that your your individual life is only a part of like everything that's happening right now, and whether that is, you know, whether you're having a hard time in your individual life with the transit or whether you're not, there's something to be said. And I'm not saying that again in a platitude way. I don't really like platitudes, but Pluto is about immense things that are bigger than you. And I was thinking about, I was mentioning in an online discussion a few days ago about the principle of like destruction gods as one of the sort of things you can see with Pluto, and when Saturn and Pluto come together. And so sometimes you do, you know, sit kind of in awe or in fear or in whatever of this thing that is much, much bigger than you. And I think it's good sometimes in those moments, kind of echoing what I was trying to say earlier about a different thing, like radical acceptance is a very good thing with with some of these kinds of transits, because you can't really you'll probably be overwhelmed with fear or anxiety if you don't just go into it. And you know, see, this is definitely bigger than me. This is definitely bigger than my own individual life, and there is nothing I can do about that. And that can be humbling, but that can also be supportive, in the sense that you don't feel like you have to carry the whole thing on your own. And that's true, even if it's happening to your individual life, you know, then it does feel more like you do have to do something about it. But anyway, I think just something about it's not a 100% fully formed thought. It's maybe like 75 right now. But you know something about keeping those dual perspectives in mind, that you have to handle your own life, but also as you observe around you. You know at this time this is something that's much bigger than you, and is also not just intimidating in that, in that respect, but that you are some part of, you are some small part of, but it is also bigger than you. So you're sharing this, whatever you're going through, basically, you're sharing it with a lot of people, and you're not alone in that.

Thank you. I really appreciated tonight. You've mentioned a few times the importance of recognizing something that's bigger, or recognizing that something is really bad, or, you know, kind of allowing for that polarization to occur so so that you can find the constructive way of entering into it or relating to it, because denying that part of it doesn't help anything. And I really am just hit by that, as well as your phrase, steely tenacity that really stuck with me tonight. Thanks. Lisa Becca, you're next on my Brady Bunch sequence.

I wanted to just close with two thoughts. One, because you asked us about whether there were any pieces of art or music or literature connected to Saturn Pluto we'd want to share, and I have a whole list on my notes that I think I'm just going to paste into the chat box. But I think that actually turning to the arts to reading great literature, to listening to music like David Bowie and Freddie Mercury's under pressure. They both are born with Saturn Pluto under pressure was recorded in 1982 under the conjunction, looking to Frida kahlo's paintings or Michelangelo's Last Judgment reading Kafka or Hemingway can be a really good outlet and connection to these archetypal themes and and then the other thing that I just wanted to end with, I think one of the first words I used when talking about Saturn at the beginning was contraction. And the word contraction, in many ways, can have a feeling of a negative connotation. It's the it's certainly the opposite of expansion, and yet, a contraction is what allows the birth process to unfold, and a contraction is simply pressure. Yes, it can be pain, but it can also be the pressure that propels the birth process. And. When we feel ourselves in an individual or collective contraction as this very much is it can also be seen as that kind of birth contraction, as a labor contraction, and that there are many sides of that idea and feeling of what a contraction is, that birth pains bring forward new life.

I couldn't help it.

I wanted to ask if you would play that at the end, and I wasn't brave enough.

No, I couldn't help it. Thank you. Becca, okay, now my Brady Bunch thing just got all messed Okay, Patrick.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me be a part of this. So cool. So just wanted to say that in my sort of potting remarks, I wrote on, I wrote a whole article on like five tips for dealing with this, because it's, like, the, probably the biggest question I've gotten, you know, more than anything, is like, what do I actually do about this now that this is happening? And, you know, not really huge into remediation or anything about that, I really know a whole lot about that. So I'm just kind of approach, approaching this as a lay person, in many ways, not a therapist or doctor or anything. But I think number one thing to remember is that a it's temporary, so there is a an end point to this. But I think another way to think about this, though that is also comforting, is that it's not temporary, that this is part of a an ongoing kind of cycle, and that, you know, we've lived through these things before, and we will again, and people have lived through these kinds of trends before, this is not new. So in that sense, it can be sort of comforting. Oftentimes, you see, in an on a historical level, that the way in which one cycle seems to sort of wrap up, kind of sets the stage for a totally different type of thing. And I know we've used this word beginning very positively, but sometimes they're often seen with the second clued cycle, that the beginnings are beginnings of kind of bad things. So obviously we are now coming towards the end of this sort of War on Terror cycle that started in 1982 came to, you know, a climax at 2001 and now we're reaching some sort of conclusion to this. But you know, whatever way this sort of shakes up, this will be sitting down the seeds for something else. So obviously, we try to use this more positively. So I guess, you know, Saturn in a positive sense. I think Saturn demands sacrifice, so a promise. When we talk about initiating structures, I think that means setting down a routine, setting down any situation that's going to work. So depending on what house that falls in for you, depending on what house the Saturn Pluto conjunction happens in that can kind of give you a sense of what area of life you may need to make some sort of commitments, or, you know, promise to do something better for the future, or a sacrifice, if it's a question of excess or or disorder, you know, I mean in a very straightforward way. You know, Saturn has been in my sixth and so as some health issues have come up, I've had to use this transfer for myself to, just like, you know, take care of myself. So obviously, that's not bad advice for anyone to take. But, you know, depending on what area is happening in, you know, you can ruminate on, on what, what part of your life kind of needs to be, reordered to be better. And so I think that is what I would say, is think of what you'd sacrifice, or what you would reform in your life as you set down your new intentions for this news cycle of terror and resiliency to Tara.

Thank you. Can you hear me? Yes? Okay, good, hold on. Let's get this sound clip for you. I'll be back. There we go. That was for that was for Patrick. Thank you, Patrick. Okay, so next on my Brady Bunch squares of honor is Sam.

Well, first under pressure has been playing in my head this whole time. So Becca, thank you for mentioning that. Because it's like been right there I was like, Yeah, pressure, and I've come to believe steely tenacity probably should be the name of a band. I wish I had a band that I could give a name to, like that there's

a sequel to Steely Dan, right?

So I think what I would say is that shit gets real, get real back. And I think, you know the facade, whatever facade you've constructed, is about to drop, or it's time to drop it. And I think the facade has probably been some fear you've constructed. And that reminds me of a corning acronym from the 80s or 90s, which is, fear is really false evidence appearing real. And so I think it's important to kind of tap into some measure of your essence. And going back to what Jason was talking about with Capricorn, you know, I relate Capricorn to evolution, and I relate evolution as like the development of essence in form. And I think there's some measure of a cultivation that's starting to happen, both personally and in terms of what's happening the planet. And it's it's important for us to become attentive to our essences, to drop our facades, get back to what's real. And when confronted with things that are false, right to move through them. Because that's what I would say.

Brilliant. Thank you, Sam. Thank you so much. I don't have a clever sound. And thank

you for this. This was great. This was, this was wonderful. So thank you. Yeah, thank you.

Let's see. Okay, great. You're, you're our last Brady Bunch contestant.

Oh yeah. Well, thank you again. Like everyone else has been saying, it's been really great to be here with all of you. Yeah, and just sort of like what Sam was saying about fear and the false evidence appearing real. I mean, it is also natural, I think, with things going on in the world now and what will be happening this year, that that's kind of a natural thing that will probably happened for people, but it's really, I think, important to separate that type of thing with what you are able to take responsibility for in your life, and just claiming the authority you have in that process. You know, whether that is, as Becca was saying, just kind of straightening your your spine, pulling yourself together when you're if you're are really upset about something, if you're somebody that has something really hard hitting you, or actually with the song under pressure, the refrain of, you know, people in the streets, you know, taking the thought responsibility to look out for other people in your community, doing what, doing your part, to see how you can be helping other people around you, seeing how you can be in service. Or if you are somebody that isn't in that bad of a spot, there's other people going to be around you that are going to be and was probably could use your help. And like we've kind of kept saying, I just think it really is important to do this inner work and really exploring that inner part of ourselves. And the idea of engaging in a process of creativity and getting into the arts, I think is a really wonderful way to do that, as Becca also mentioned. And keeping with the David Bowie theme, think the album he came out with at that Saturn or that Pluto Saturn conjunction was the one with, let's dance on it. So yeah, we can also put on our red sheet. And is,

thank you. Great. By no means do I want to. I'm not trying to have any final word here. I'll just put in my own two cents. As we all are the for me and my everything comes back to really, my spiritual practice, which is something that my heart's so deeply absorbed in these days, and in bhakti yoga, one of the things that's so important is that we're not it's a form of yoga that's not into renunciation, trying to overcome, conquer or renounce the difficulties of worldly experience instead. And I think ancient astrology has something of this in it all. The astrology that comes down throughout the ages is that we recognize, through the study of archetypes, through the study of planets, the presence of the gods, and if you recognize the presence of these divine symbols and myths and metaphors and and you, you're we're able, we have so unique it's such a privilege, really, to be able to see something of divine value worth in the midst of what we're going through. And if we can remember that it it sanctifies and makes sacred the experience, whatever it is. And so any emotion, any experience, can become holy, even if it's terrifying, and, and, and I think that that's one of the reasons why it's so important to end with a thought of dancing, which bhakti is all about. It's like take any emotion and see if you can turn it into some kind of sacred dance or song, or that's why it's. Also so important to that coming around here at the end, where we're it's like that song under pressure. It, it's similar in this in a sense that it, it allows us to feel the ecstasy of what's happening right now, not just something to manage, but something to allow to grip us and to feed our souls. So I hope that we've gotten that out of this evening as a whole. And I want to mention one last time, everything we collect from this evening goes straight to helping the fire relief in Australia. I'm going to put that link in the chat box 15 to 25 as suggested. Please give whatever you can and thank you so much to everybody for participating. By the way, everyone knows me as Adam Elenbaas, I recently was initiated the bhakti tradition. And so for people who are wondering, did you just call me a chuta? From now on, just a chuta, because I know I just noticed people are a little nervous. Sometimes, what do I say? Or whatever, so you can just call me a Chu te so thank you everyone so much for coming, and it only feels appropriate that I should click play on this as we're saying goodbye. Here we go.

There we go. All right, good night, everybody. You